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Originally posted by Rajk999Rajk999 protests, but rather needlessly -
Enemies of the cross of Christ are those who violate the doctrine of Christ or put Christ to shame by continuing with a sinful worldly life after knowing him.
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This too should to be considered being an enemy of self denial that living Christ requires. There is no reason for Rajk999 to argue this form of rebellion I do not mean.
These Christians do not appreciate the work and suffering that Christ did on the cross.
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You could put it that way. I have no problem with putting it this way.
Rajk999's protests here are because he is afraid to not talk about his favorite topic - arguing against the security of eternal redemption and eternal life.
They care little for the teachings of Christ, and preach that Christ and his commandments do not apply to them. These are enemies of the cross of Christ.
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It would be naive to think that it is only a DOCTRINAL matter. Paul said he warned the Philippians with tears. He was very emotional about it. Why ?
Enemies of the cross of Christ may SAY all the right things.
They may actuall TEACH all things which sound right.
But it is not a matter of what they teach only.
It is not a matter of knowing doctrines. It is matter of whether they practice denying themselves, their soul-life in favor of allowing Christ to live through them.
Paul had to warn with weeping because such people may be good teachers, good speakers, very doctrinal, very zealous. But in all that looks good there is an underlying serious deficiency. They do not like to deny themselves to follow Christ.
Paul and Paul's message were ONE.
What Paul taught Paul lived.
So he says not just "Listen to my right teaching" but "imitate me in the way I and my co-workers LIVED, LIVED, LIVED"
"Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern.
For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ."
He is saying ie. FOLLOW MY EXAMPLE IN THE WAY I LIVE. He lived by denying himself and living Christ. He worked with others who did also. Follow these types of Christians, he says.
This is the pattern to follow.
These are the brothers and sisters you should imitate.
He they are friendly to picking up their cross to follow Jesus.
They are friendly to the cross of Christ.
Then Paul speaks disparagingly of these enemies.
" ... they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose god is their stomach, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things." (Phil 3:18b-19)
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The Apostle Peter was virtually a leader among the 12 disciples.
But at one point even Peter became an enemy of the cross of Christ. Here is the famous incident. The backround is that Jesus was telling His disciples of His upcoming execution by crucifixion.
Peter protests and tells Jesus He should feel sorry for Himself and spare Himself.
" From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed an on the third day be raised.
And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, God be merciful to You, Lord ! This shall by no means happen to You! " (Matt. 16:21,22)
In other words Peter was telling Jesus to preserve His soul-life with self pity. At that moment Peter was being used by Satan.
"But He [Jesus] turned and said to Peter, Get behind Me, Satan! You are not setting your mind on the things of God but on the things of men.
Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me." (Matt. 16:23-24)
Peter was one with Satan at that moment.
Satan HATES that man would deny the self.
Jesus said Peter was setting his mind on the things of men.
This corresponds to Paul saying that the enemies of the cross set their minds on earthly things.
" Enemies of the cross of Christ ... Whose end is destruction, ... who set their minds on earthly things."
Setting the mind on the things of men rather than the will of God equals setting the mind on earthly things.
Originally posted by Rajk999For someone who is very insulting to others you should not complain about people getting
You and your OSAS type cannot carry on a discussion about Bible doctrine about eternal life, without getting personal. It is YOU that started getting personal by telling me, I have no joy, that I would have called Jesus a sinner and asking me if I sin. I have never asked you one single personal question neither have I made any personal remarks about you. ...[text shortened]... ose like Sonship and others who think they can live anyhow they like and still get eternal life.
personal if you cannot avoid doing it yourself.
Originally posted by KellyJayThe ability to reason and understand is not one of your strong points. Being insulting and being personal is two distinct and separate matters.
For someone who is very insulting to others you should not complain about people getting
personal if you cannot avoid doing it yourself.
I dont want to know anything about you personally, neither sonship, neither manny or anyone for that matter. But you people constantly ask me about myself - like my experiences with Christ, what has God done for me, whether I sin .. all personal questions which I dont answer.
I may on occasion be verbally strong with stupidity or people who deliberately go off topic .. that is not being personal.
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipYou hit the nail on the head ..
Rajk999 protests, but rather needlessly -
[b] Enemies of the cross of Christ are those who violate the doctrine of Christ or put Christ to shame by continuing with a sinful worldly life after knowing him.
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This too should to be considered being an enemy of self denial ...[text shortened]... glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things." (Phil 3:18b-19) [/b] [/quote][/b]
Your doctrine is not very Christ friendly .
You instead preach a doctrine that runs at enmity to Christ.
Originally posted by Rajk999No, insulting someone is getting personal, and you are quite nasty from time to time.
The ability to reason and understand is not one of your strong points. Being insulting and being personal is two distinct and separate matters.
I dont want to know anything about you personally, neither sonship, neither manny or anyone for that matter. But you people constantly ask me about myself - like my experiences with Christ, what has God done for m ...[text shortened]... lly strong with stupidity or people who deliberately go off topic .. that is not being personal.
Asking a personal question doesn't mean it has to be nasty or good, it is just personal.
Insulting someone's intellect, their spiritual walk, memory, ability to read, all of this goes
right at the person. You do tend to be very nasty, very personal, and you direct it all
to people who disagree with you. I don't care what you know, or don't know about anyone
here, that doesn't change a thing.
Asking you a direct question about your life can be as harmless as saying "hi", calling
someone names, or making fun of them doesn't require personal knowledge about that
person, just a hateful heart, because that is where stuff like that comes from, it would
not come from a loving or caring one.
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by KellyJayYou sincerely believe that Rajk999 has "a hateful heart"? I can't remember him ever saying anything even as remotely as "nasty" as that to you.
No, insulting someone is getting personal, and you are quite nasty from time to time.
Asking a personal question doesn't mean it has to be nasty or good, it is just personal.
Insulting someone's intellect, their spiritual walk, memory, ability to read, all of this goes
right at the person. You do tend to be very nasty, very personal, and you direct it al ...[text shortened]... ecause that is where stuff like that comes from, it would
not come from a loving or caring one.
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by FMFSince you have rejected and abandoned Christian principles and thought, it's no wonder you don't consider a supposed Christian claiming that all Christians not only do not follow Christ, but that they just cannot wait to go out and sin again, as being not only an incredible lie, but evidence that he is not following Christ himself. In fact, I'll go beyond him demonstrably having "a hateful heart" and being "nasty", and also say that he is a complete hypocrite when he says to "follow Christ" even though he cannot bring himself to do so. "Do as I say, not as I do" comes to mind here and is at the heart of this sort of hypocrisy.
You sincerely believe that Rajk999 has "a hateful heart"? I can't remember him ever saying anything even as remotely as "nasty" as that to you.
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by SuzianneDoes this mean you also believe that Rajk999 has "a hateful heart"?
Since you have rejected and abandoned Christian principles and thought, it's no wonder you don't consider a supposed Christian claiming that all Christians not only do not follow Christ, but that they just cannot wait to go out and sin again, as being not only an incredible lie, but evidence that he is not following Christ himself. In fact, I'll go beyond ...[text shortened]... o. "Do as I say, not as I do" comes to mind here and is at the heart of this sort of hypocrisy.
What makes you say that he "cannot bring himself to follow Christ"?
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by FMFDo you really think these sorts of admissions that you can't follow a simple train of thought speaks well of your campaign to become a mod? I would hope that if I need a mod that they would be able to understand my problem. That should be a minimum requirement for mods, one would think.
Does this mean you also believe that Rajk999 has "a hateful heart"?
What makes you say that he "cannot bring himself to follow Christ"?
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13 Oct 15
4 edits
The topic is "Enemies of the cross of Christ" what does that mean ?
The phrase is used in Philippians 3:18.
"For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you even weeping that they are enemies of the cross of Christ"
Now for some context let us back up to Paul's warning. And I think we should do so both a negative context as well as a positive one.
First a negative context. In 3:2 Paul warns a related warning.
"Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision." (3:2)
There is no conjunction used between any of these three phrases. This argues that must refer to the same class of people.
"Dogs" are "evil workers" are "the concision".
"Dogs" - are unclean (Leviticus 11:27) and noisy.
"Evil workers" - are evil (and busy at it ).
"The concision" - are those deserving of contempt.
"The concision" is a contemptuous term for circumcision . The contemptuous "concision" meant a mutilation of the body. Paul means a mutilation void of any spiritual reality that such a practice of circumcision was meant to convey.
In Galatians 5:12 Paul wrote:
" I wish that those upsetting you would cut themselves off."
" The apostle Paul wished that the Judaizers who upset the Galatians by insisting on circumcision would cut off not only their own foreskin but even themselves. Their upsetting, disturbing self needed to be amputated."
[footnote 12(1), Gal, 5:12, recovery Version Living Stream Ministry]
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The dogs refer here in Philippians too to the Judaizers. These were teachers trying to keep the believers out of the experience of New Testament grace. They included Christians like those in the council in Acts 15 who insisted that all the Gentile believers keep the law of Moses.
By nature they were unclean. For they still lived in the old creation.
By behavior they were "evil workers."
In religion they were people of shame, "the concision" .
This book of Philippians is very much on the experience of Christ. And in this book Paul warns against those who were a bothering to the believers' experience and enjoyment of Christ.
He is warning these Gentile believers to be wary of such unclean, evil, and contemptible people.
He warns again "with weeping" because it is so serious, that these opposers of his teaching and life example are "enemies of the cross of Christ."
"Be imitators together of me, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ." (3:17,18)
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by SuzianneThe reason I am asking is because I do follow the trains of thought that are at work in conversations between people like you and a poster like Rajk999. You have never, ever made any case whatsoever that suggests that he "cannot bring himself to follow Christ", perhaps you think you have. I haven't seen you do it. Indeed, I think you are trying to evade engaging him properly by dismissing him as "hateful", that being a prominent 'debate' tactic of yours, after all. My two questions were an opportunity for you to acquit yourself rather better, but you seem to have declined.
Do you really think these sorts of admissions that you can't follow a simple train of thought speaks well of your campaign to become a mod? I would hope that if I need a mod that they would be able to understand my problem. That [b]should be a minimum requirement for mods, one would think.[/b]
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Now I can't wait to move into something more positive. After Paul's warning in 2:2 he speaks the positive side of being not an enemy but very friendly to self denial and "the cross of Christ" .
My next few posts will try to prove that Paul now goes to telling us of his own spiritual walk. (He includes his co-workers). And he exhorts all who are mature to imitate his way of living.
That is he urges them to experience Christ in the same way.
So let's started -
"For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh" (v.3)
Friendly towards the cross of Christ is indicated in this phrase - "and have NO CONFIDENCE ... in the flesh" .
We will go on to see how Paul had plenty of reason to have confidence just as much as the unclean dog Judaisers. But in contrast to them, he had NO CONFIDENCE in the flesh. He submitted the cross of Christ. He denied his upbringing and his splendid pedigree as a zealous law keeping Jew.
We'll start here:
"Though I myself have something to be confident of in the flesh as well, If any other man thinks that he has confidence in the flesh, I more." (v.4)
What he is saying is that he has even more reasons to be an enemy of the cross if he wanted to. He has such a good religious and cultural background, he has plenty more reasons to be self confident.
But these things, as we will see, are not his boast. And in these things he has no confidence. He denies them in order to pursue Jesus Christ. He has seen something better. He has seen something higher.
He has seen in Christ something that cannot be compared to the best things of the flesh - the old man. It is not worth it to him to hang on to those old things of the flesh. He is friendly to self denial in order to "gain Christ" .