Originally posted by menace71I wonder if you see the flaw in that.
My Christian buddies? Wow..... Well on that day when we stand before God I will indeed bow before Christ and say I have no righteousness of my own other than what you have cloaked me in and any acts that I have done were because you made it possible
Manny
Basically what that says is if:
- you follow Christ commandments and you are considered a sheep [per Matt 25}, you are giving Jesus the credit and that is correct.
- you fail to follow Christ commandments and/or continue on with sin, Christ will consider you a goat BUT you seem to be blaming Christ for your sin. which is wrong. You in effect are claiming Christ cloaked you in sin.
Is this the reason why many Christians claim they will not have to account for sin .. because it is all on Christ?
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13 Oct 15
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Originally posted by menace71
Paul essentially says.... No longer live in sin stop presenting yourselves as instruments of sin...... But it's still possible to sin..... The practicality is literally stop living in sin
Very good.
And this is why we should not be enemies of the cross of Christ.
We SEE something. What did we see ?
We SEE that indeed we have been crucified with Christ.
We are not ignorant of something.
Of what should we not be ignorant?
That we have been crucified with Christ.
That we have been buried with Christ.
That we have been raised with Christ.
It is all a matter of "with Christ" and "with Christ" and "with Christ".
Now one thing. All this "with Christ" in chapters 6 is practically realized in chapter 8. Where are all the BENEFITS Of this being "with Christ" ?
They are in the Spirit.
We turn to the Spirit to appropriate this wonderful oneness with Christ.
The death is there in the Spirit.
The enlivening and resurrection power is there in the Spirit.
The Spirit is in the Christians' spirit.
And we have to set our mind on the Spirit.
We turn to our spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is.
First it is matter of seeing the truth.
Secondly it is a matter walking in the Spirit where the truth becomes ours practically.
The way to get into all the co-oneness with Christ in chapter 6 of Romans is found mostly in chapter 8.
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Originally posted by menace71
My Christian buddies? Wow..... Well on that day when we stand before God I will indeed bow before Christ and say I have no righteousness of my own other than what you have cloaked me in and any acts that I have done were because you made it possible
Never let anyone make you feel ashamed for having companions in the Christian life.
This matter of living Christ is designed by God that we usually cannot make it unless we DO have horizontal fellowship in the Body of Christ.
Many are in poverty because they are so isolated.
We need the oneness and we need the proper oneness.
There is so much God will flow to us of His grace vertically.
He may flow quite much grace to us individually from a vertical angle.
But there are vast resources of grace that remain to be ours that He is only pleased to flow to us HORIZONTALLY in the oneness of the Body of Christ - in fellowship.
So having a Christian companion or two is the wisest thing a Christian can do. We have to humble our selves to first call on the name of Jesus.
But He's not through. Then we need to further humble ourselves to realize that we cannot make it alone. We need the other members of the Body. At least like Daniel in the Old Testament, we need some companions. One is good. Two or up to four is even better - like Daniel.
There is a supply and flow of grace and power that God reserves for us which He is pleased to release to us in the Body horizontally.
So it is a balance.
We need a private time with the Lord Jesus.
And we need a companion time in the Lord.
That is other interests are put aside and together we two or we three or more pursue Christ.
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999The sad part is people getting taken in by all this bullshyte.
After a discussion with Manny in the thread "Jesus saves VS works", I cant help but notice how so many Christians cherry pick the Bible with the aim of extracting the most favourable doctrine that suits their fancy [or personal situation] which I summarise and paraphrase below:
- I profess I believe in Christ therefore Im saved eternally
- Not even God ...[text shortened]... ding to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Php 3:20-21)[/b]
13 Oct 15
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm not blaming Christ for my sin.....I'm saying that He took on my sin and paid for it ( not a light thing very costly) the Bible teaches this. Jesus is our Advocate before God and He uses His Righteousness in our place.... This is biblical and the Glory and praise be to God for saving us... This doesn't excuse from living a righteous obedient life however as Paul says
I wonder if you see the flaw in that.
Basically what that says is if:
- you follow Christ commandments and you are considered a sheep [per Matt 25}, you are giving Jesus the credit and that is correct.
- you fail to follow Christ commandments and/or continue on with sin, Christ will consider you a goat BUT you seem to be blaming Christ for your sin. ...[text shortened]... why many Christians claim they will not have to account for sin .. because it is all on Christ?
Manny
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I was meaning that Christ gives us His Righteousness.... He gives us a robe of righteousness not that he gives me sin.... Sorry my Grammer is not always the best
I wonder if you see the flaw in that.
Basically what that says is if:
- you follow Christ commandments and you are considered a sheep [per Matt 25}, you are giving Jesus the credit and that is correct.
- you fail to follow Christ commandments and/or continue on with sin, Christ will consider you a goat BUT you seem to be blaming Christ for your sin. ...[text shortened]... why many Christians claim they will not have to account for sin .. because it is all on Christ?
Manny
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipI understand we do need fellowship with other Christians...... I was just amused at the " your Christian buddies" coment as if I know all of you personallyMy Christian buddies? Wow..... Well on that day when we stand before God I will indeed bow before Christ and say I have no righteousness of my own other than what you have cloaked me in and any acts that I have done were because you made it possible
Never let anyone make you feel ashamed for having companions in the Christian life. ...[text shortened]... .
That is other interests are put aside and together we two or we three or more pursue Christ.
Manny
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by menace71I know all of that and I agree with all of that. Can we get past that now?
I'm not blaming Christ for my sin.....I'm saying that He took on my sin and paid for it ( not a light thing very costly) the Bible teaches this. Jesus is our Advocate before God and He uses His Righteousness in our place.... This is biblical and the Glory and praise be to God for saving us... This doesn't excuse from living a righteous obedient life however as Paul says
Manny
What happens then in the case of a Christian living an unrighteous and disobedient life. What did Paul or Christ or any Apostle say about that?
13 Oct 15
Originally posted by menace71What I meant as you well know is that your docrtines are the same. There are many Christian sects and they are not all identical.
I understand we do need fellowship with other Christians...... I was just amused at the " your Christian buddies" coment as if I know all of you personally
Manny
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Originally posted by Rajk999So I take a slight diversion to deal with some erroneous concepts of Rajk999:
- Nobody has eternal life yet, neither is anyone regenerated yet. Even Paul said that he will have to wait on the return of
I have eternal life now. How do I know that?
1.) John assures the believers:
" I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 3:13)
This verse is not about maturity. It is about being assured that one HAS eternal life upon believing into Christ.
2.) John says having the Son of God equals having the life, the eternal life.
"He who has the Son has the life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (v.12)
This verse is also not spiritual maturity. It is about being in possession of the life which is in and IS the Son of God, Jesus.
3.) Peter says the believers HAVE BEEN [past tense] regenerated:
" Having been regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God." ( 1 Peter 1:23)
This verse is also not about full maturity in sanctification or completion in the growth of life. It is about "having BEEN regenerated" though the living and continually abiding word of God.
Saying no one has been regenerated is therefore a lie.
4.) Peter also uses the PAST TENSE to emphasize the believers have been regenerated through the resurrection of Christ from the dead.
" Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." ( 1 Peter 1:3)
The Apostle Peter teaches the believers have BEEN regenerated.
The Apostle teaches that God HAS regenerated us who believe into the risen Christ. .
Rajk999 saying no one is yet regenerated is a lie.
Read more:
www.regenerated.net
Originally posted by sonshipIf you use a bogus translation you can make the Bible say anything your little heart desires. Please quote from the KJV or if you prefer use your bogus translation but provide the Greek word from which regenerate or regeneration was derived.
So I take a slight diversion to deal with some erroneous concepts of Rajk999:
- Nobody has eternal life yet, neither is anyone regenerated yet. Even Paul said that he will have to wait on the return of
I have eternal life now. How do I know that?
1.) John assures the believers:
[quote] [b] " I have written these things t ...[text shortened]... .
Rajk999 saying no one is yet regenerated is a lie.
Read more:
www.regenerated.net
In the meantime chew on these 3 facts straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ
1. That the regeneration takes place when he returns
2. Those regenerated are spirit beings not fleshly beings
3 Those who are regenerated can move like the wind.
So, is Christ returned? No
Are you a spirit being or are you flesh and blood? Flesh and blood Im sure
Can you move like the wind ? I guess not.
Sorry to say, you are not regenerated. Have patience. Stay humble. Dont be greedy and grab at things which are not given to you yet.
And No Im not going to read www.regeneated.net when the words of Christ are very clear.
Originally posted by Rajk999Your legalism clouds your discernment. Whether or not someone has some important facts "screwed up in their head", or not, has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the ability of God To dispense grace. The Lord looks at the heart.
Right now you have a few important facts screwed up in your head. I hope you clear it up before that day reaches you.
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Originally posted by Rajk999If you use a bogus translation you can make the Bible say anything your little heart desires.
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You don't read or write in either Hebrew or Greek so I'll ignore your complaint about "bogus translation". You're off to a weak start.
Your comment is vague, obfuscating, slanderous, unsubstantiated, and feeble.
Please quote from the KJV or if you prefer use your bogus translation but provide the Greek word from which regenerate or regeneration was derived.
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If you think the King James Version has something substantially different in the renderings of any of those passages, you demonstrate it.
KJV - First John 5:13 ( mistakenly had 3:13 )
King James Bible
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
KJV - verse 12
King James Bible
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
KJV on 1 Peter 1:23
King James Bible
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Here KJV says "born again" and I quoted the Recovery Version which reads "regenerated".
www.regenerated.net includes this comment:
The Greek word rendered “regeneration,” palingenesia, is composed of palin (“again&rdquo😉 and genesis (“birth&rdquo😉. Thus, its participial form “regenerated” literally means “born again.”
King James on [n] First Peter 1:3
King James Bible
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
See note above on palingenesia .
You have NOTHING so far as a refutation.
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In the meantime chew on these 3 facts straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ
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1. That the regeneration takes place when he returns
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Rajk999 is referring to Matt. 19:28 which has a different word from what is translated regeneration in 1 Peter 1:23
The word used in Matt. 19:28 is used only in one other place in the NT - Titus 3:5. The Recovery Version translates it RESTORATION in Matthew 19:28 - speaking of the millennial kingdom following Christ's second coming:
"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the RESTORATION, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:28)
Nature, the environment, and the broken down tabernacle of David meaning the theocratic nation of Israel will be RESTORED during the 1,000 years.
This in NO CONCEIVABLE WAY argues that regeneration has not taken place as a born-again experience in believers in Christ all during the church age.
The same word CAN be translated REGENERATION though in English. And it is rendered "regeneration" in the Recovery Version where Paul speaks of the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
" Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
The Greek word in Titus 3:5 and Matthew 19:28 is different from the Greek word in 1 Peter 1:23
But it could be rendered either restoration or regeneration in English. This does little for Rajk999's case.
Paul says in Titus 3:5 other things which do not support Rajk999's concept.
1.) He SAVED us [past tense] Paul writes.
2.) It was not by works of righteousness which we did.
A further discussion on Restoration and regeneration (born again) I will not pursue in this post.
2. Those regenerated are spirit beings not fleshly beings
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Peter was speaking of human beings when he says they were regenerated. They were born again of the Spirit in their spirit as Jesus taught.
" That which is born of the flesh is flesh. and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)
Jesus is NOT saying one born of the Spirit in his spirit has no flesh ! A man of flesh and bones also has a human spirit which can be born again.
3 Those who are regenerated can move like the wind.
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I don't know what he means, It is some weird spin of John 3:8. The only important point in this chapter to notice is that a man with FLESH can be born in his spirit of the Holy Spirit.
Obviously, when Peter said " You were regenerated " he was not referring to people who did not possess flesh and bones.
The whole man consists of "spirit and soul and body" (1 Thess. 5:23) - three parts:
"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 1 Thess. 5:23)
The COMPLETE man or woman consists of spirit and soul and body .
So, is Christ returned? No
Christ had not come a second time when Peter wrote to the Christians - "Having been regenerated ..."
He did not say they were WAITING TO BE regenerated. He said they WERE regenerated.
" Having BEEN ... regenerated ... through the living and abiding word of God." (1 Peter 1:23)
He says:
1.) PAST - regeneraTED.
2.) He refers not to the second coming of Christ but the living and abiding word of God.