Eternal punishment

Originally posted by KellyJay
What makes you think everyone will "eventually" end up in heaven?
Is it just your hope that is the case, you base that upon something
other than you wish it so? Why would God offer an eternal reward of
mercy to those that accept Him and not an eternal reward towards
those that reject Him that is different? It sort of makes the whole be
good thing worth ...[text shortened]... me thing in the end
anyway, you think that is what a God who is Just and Holy will do?
Kelly

Like I said :it is my contention.
It may take a while. Lives on other hellish planets,etc. But it is Spirits purpose for all souls to get to heaven.
I guess those who accept 'Him" now will just get there quicker. Are you questioning God's eternal mercy?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Like I said :it is my contention.
It may take a while. Lives on other hellish planets,etc. But it is Spirits purpose for all souls to get to heaven.
I guess those who accept 'Him" now will just get there quicker. Are you questioning God's eternal mercy?

Not questioning God eternal mercy those that get His mercy will be
given it throughout eternity, I'm just wondering where you get all
this other stuff, from TV shows like star trek or something?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not questioning God eternal mercy those that get His mercy will be
given it throughout eternity, I'm just wondering where you get all
this other stuff, from TV shows like star trek or something?
Kelly

I resonate with it

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not questioning God eternal mercy those that get His mercy will be
given it throughout eternity, I'm just wondering where you get all
this other stuff, from TV shows like star trek or something?
Kelly

Anyway how will we recieve Gods mercy if 'He' condems us to hell(for eternity)

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it is a very interesting an astute observation, let me share just one scriptural references with you, for it is relevant

(Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, . . .

now if we are conscious of nothing at all during death, how is it possible that we sha ...[text shortened]... ns made to roll a huge stone up a gradient, only for it to fall to the bottom again etc etc etc.

==========================================
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, . . .
==========================================

It is very perculiar that you would go back to the Old Testament book of Ecclesiastes to form your final insights on something which in New Testament has much clearer revelation on.

Ecclesiastes was written mainly concerning the observations of a wise man of things "under the sun". The oft repeated phrase "under the sun" indicates that Solomon is expounding his knowledge of the world and life as seen from a human standpoint of the limited realm of temporal earthly existence.

This is proved by his asking the question : "Who knows if the breath of the children of men, that it goes upward; or the breath of the beasts, that it goes downward? (Ecc. 3:21)

As far as typical human experience is "under the sun" no one really knows by experience whether he will die and his spirit ascends as opposed to a beast's spirit that it descends. By experience no one living can tell us. So it is a mystery according to human experience.

This limitation upon Solomon's musing makes it untrustworthy to conclude that Ecclesiastes 9:5 should be the last word on what happens to the soul of man upon death. And in light of what Jesus taught, (who is the one who has gone into death and come back again) it is foolish to rely on Ecclesiastes to sum up the more detailed teaching of Christ.

I think you are taking Ecclesiastes out of its fuller biblical context, rejecting the clearer revelation of God for the pre-mature and less clear. I think you are doing this out of preference for a more personally favorable view of death.

================================
now if we are conscious of nothing at all during death, how is it possible that we shall feel the pain of the so called eternal torment,
================================

Once again, it is unwise for you take Ecclesiastes as the final authoritative word on the subject. It is wiser for you to take the New Testament revelation on the matter as surpassing Ecclesiastes in clarity. You lift Ecclesiastes above the teaching of Jesus and the New Testament at your own peril here.

Jesus said in the New Testament:

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matt. 10:28)

Firstly, this destroys the Russellite teaching that the soul is the same as the body or the physical blood.

Secondly, appealing to Ecclesiastes 9:5 to neutralize the fear of an after physical death suffering of the killing of the soul, is exceedingly unwise.

You are saying in essence - "There is no need to fear anything after the body has been killed. That is because Ecclesiastes 9:5 has Solomon telling us that the dead know nothing, that they have no more reward, and that the memory of them is forgotten. "

I would count your reasoning as a kind of rebellion against the teaching of Jesus Christ in favor of a more likable concept found in Solomon's musings about the vanity of life "under the sun" in this temporal world.

Jesus is teaching that man has authority and power to harm your physical body. But God has an ADDITIONAL authority and power. After your body has been killed He still is able to further harm a man by killing the soul.

Technicalities about what exactly "killing" the soul here is are really beside the point. It should be crystal clear that Christ is teaching us that God has power to inflict something undesirable upon the soul of man after the body has been killed.

Look again at the passage:

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

Arguing, as Charles Russell and the Jehovah's Witnesses do, that death is an unconscious annhilation would make NO DIFFERENCE between MAN killing the body and GOD destroying body and soul in Gehenna. The entire point is that there IS a difference to be respected and even feared.

If man can cast you into Gehenna and God can also cast you into Gehenna and the result is the same, then there is no reason to fear what God can do over what man can do.

The point of your rebellious attempt to place Ecclesiastes 9:5 as a final word, transcending and clarifying Matthew 10:28 is actually a revolt against the divine warning to fear God.

Posturing your intepretation up to appear as promoting some OTHER kind of fear of God, I think, is rebellion. Russell is saying in essence "No, I WILL NOT fear God according to the warning of Jesus. I will instead believe that the dead know nothing like Ecclesiastes says."

It is a foolish attitude. It is an unwise attitude.

==============================
and yes you are correct, this is essentially a Greek model, for there we find many characters who are tortured eternally, for example there is a character who is chained to a rock and the ravens come and eat them up, they replenish themselves only to be eaten up again the next morning, or persons made to roll a huge stone up a gradient, only for it to fall to the bottom again etc etc etc.
===================================

Justifying and rationalizing this rebellion by linking the fear of God with Dante's Inferno is unwise.

This is like arguing -" Well, there cannot be any Devil because it is foolish to think of a little horned guy in a red jump suit with a pitch fork. My, isn't that silly. So then, let's not believe in Satan."

Guilt by association is inadequate here. You should not point to fictional religious literature (or Greek mythology) to try to discourage people from taking the revelation of God in the Bible seriously.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Anyway how will we recieve Gods mercy if 'He' condems us to hell(for eternity)

If you receive God's mercy you will not be condemned to Hell, if you
receive the wrath of God you will not receive God's mercy at all He does
not mix the two.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If you receive God's mercy you will not be condemned to Hell, if you
receive the wrath of God you will not receive God's mercy at all He does
not mix the two.
Kelly

Nice of you to be able to speak so clearly for this almighty and beyond our comprehension being that you worship. I'm sure the omnipotent god appreciates you clarifying for us how he will and will not administer justice and mercy.

Originally posted by Ullr
Nice of you to be able to speak so clearly for this almighty and beyond our comprehension being that you worship. I'm sure the omnipotent god appreciates you clarifying for us how he will and will not administer justice and mercy.

Concerning what KellyJay wrote I would say that I see instances where God mixed or tempered His anger with mercy a number of times.

But I am not sure KellyJay would not disagree with this. That is if we are talking about His wrath short of eternal perdition.

Concerning what you wrote about being informed. I would suggest that you not take my word for it or KellyJay's but you delve into the Bible yourself.

Then you can derive from your own study what you believe is being taught there. And you do not have to thank anyone else sarcastically or otherwise, for "informing" you.

With something of this possible level of importance, I would think you would want to research the matter first hand anyway.

Originally posted by jaywill
Concerning what KellyJay wrote I would say that I see instances where God mixed or tempered His anger with mercy a number of times.

But I am not sure KellyJay would not disagree with this. That is if we are talking about His wrath short of eternal perdition.

Concerning what you wrote about being informed. I would suggest that you not take my word for ...[text shortened]... e level of importance, I would think you would want to research the matter first hand anyway.

Let me be perfectly clear with you Jaywill. I have no intention of reading the Bible any more than I already have in my lifetime. Your god is not my god. I'm way past feeling threatened or concerned about the eternal damnation or salvation laid out in Christian mythology.

My sarcasm on this list is reserved for those who spread fear and ignorance in such a "matter of fact" style as KellyJay.

Originally posted by Ullr
Let me be perfectly clear with you Jaywill. I have no intention of reading the Bible any more than I already have in my lifetime. Your god is not my god. I'm way past feeling threatened or concerned about the eternal damnation or salvation laid out in Christian mythology.

My sarcasm on this list is reserved for those who spread fear and ignorance in such a "matter of fact" style as KellyJay.

================================
Let me be perfectly clear with you Jaywill. I have no intention of reading the Bible any more than I already have in my lifetime. Your god is not my god. I'm way past feeling threatened or concerned about the eternal damnation or salvation laid out in Christian mythology.

My sarcasm on this list is reserved for those who spread fear and ignorance in such a "matter of fact" style as KellyJay.
=====================================

There are a lot things in the Bible besides judgment and damnation.

But if you are afraid to read the Bible for some reason, that is your loss.

How do you know that your life is worth a damn to begin with ? Why are you here in the world anyway ? Maybe for you to be damned is a perfectly good waste of fire.

I think maybe you haven't a clue why you're here in the universe anyway.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]================================
Let me be perfectly clear with you Jaywill. I have no intention of reading the Bible any more than I already have in my lifetime. Your god is not my god. I'm way past feeling threatened or concerned about the eternal damnation or salvation laid out in Christian mythology.

My sarcasm on this list is reserved for t ...[text shortened]... aste of fire.

I think maybe you haven't a clue why you're here in the universe anyway.

I personaly have no clue as to what I'm here for, and the truth of the matter is no one else does either. We can all speculate as to the nature of our existense, but after it's all hashed out we know nothing about God or what happens sfter death or if Jesus was really the Son of God or if Buddha was the guy he's suppose to be or if Krishna really was the God that he was suppose to be. It's all up for grabs.
Reading the bible is like a dog chasing it's tail. It goes nowhere quick. In my oppinion the Bible is the most confusing, and aggravating book I've ever read. I can only understand a small portion of what's being said, and the parts I think I understand seem nut's. Off course there are wonderful things in the Bible like you will find in any other Holy book. What it comes down to for me is the Bible or any other Holy book leaves me as mystified about Truth as I was before I read them.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Anyway how will we recieve Gods mercy if 'He' condems us to hell(for eternity)

You are talking to a brick wall. You will only receice the same B.S. about how God will Save you with his Mercy if you just become a Christian. If you just think the same way as the rest of the herd thinks. If not the Flames await you in the rational punishment of Hell. It's amazing that Christianuty ever got off the ground. Now I can see why Scientology has followers. Any Looney Toon ideas put out there will attract some people.

Originally posted by jaywill
But if you are afraid to read the Bible for some reason, that is your loss.

How do you know that your life is worth a damn to begin with ? Why are you here in the world anyway ? Maybe for you to be damned is a perfectly good waste of fire.

I think maybe you haven't a clue why you're here in the universe anyway.

Not wanting to read the bible on my part is from lack of interest not fear. As I mentioned to you before I'm way past being fearful of Christian mythology.

How do I know my life is worth a damn you ask? Quite simply because I make it so. I don't require your Jesus to be a worthwhile person.

Why am I here you ask? Because my ancestors and my gods wanted me to be here. So I am.

As to your comment about my damnation being a perfectly good waste of fire ... well I can only suggest that I think a good, strong minded heathen like myself would burn very brightly.

Originally posted by Ullr
Not wanting to read the bible on my part is from lack of interest not fear. As I mentioned to you before I'm way past being fearful of Christian mythology.

How do I know my life is worth a damn you ask? Quite simply because I make it so. I don't require your Jesus to be a worthwhile person.

Why am I here you ask? Because my ancestors and my gods wante ...[text shortened]... only suggest that I think a good, strong minded heathen like myself would burn very brightly.

Christian Faith.

If you sin, maybe.

It doesn't matter if you require, He Is already.

There's only One God.

Or darkly.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not questioning God eternal mercy those that get His mercy will be
given it throughout eternity, I'm just wondering where you get all
this other stuff, from TV shows like star trek or something?
Kelly

Do you think God wants us to worship him because of fear? Kristy Lane sang a tune and part of it went "youve got the power to save me and it makes me love you so much". Is that true love or what. In other words I love you for what I can get from you. Is worship the same?