Eternal punishment

Originally posted by daniel58
It's separate, what would be the point of Heaven, if there wasn't a hell?

What would be the point of heaven if there wasn't a hell? i really dont know where to start with this. I suppose it would follow on from the idea that God is Love (if this is not a sufficient response just let me know and I will elaborate).
Maybe someone else could help me answering this wierd-ass question. (please)

Originally posted by karoly aczel
yes I belive in God, but I dont go around telling everyone, (as if my faith was deficient),I only mention it because you asked.

"Those who profess Me, I will profess them before My Father in Heaven"

"Not all those who say; Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

Which brings up another point if hell isn't eternal then everyone must eventually go to Heaven which would make the second quote invalid.

Originally posted by daniel58
"Those who profess Me, I will profess them before My Father in Heaven"

"Not all those who say; Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

Which brings up another point if hell isn't eternal then everyone must eventually go to Heaven which would make the second quote invalid.

Yep,every one will EVENTUALLY go to heaven. Thats my contention. Following along the lines of "God is Love" this is a logical conclusion to reach.
Even Hitler and those naughty little grey aliens that have come to Earth and stuffed aound with our world by travelling back and forth in time and screwing with peoples minds.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Yep,every one will EVENTUALLY go to heaven. Thats my contention. Following along the lines of "God is Love" this is a logical conclusion to reach.
Even Hitler and those naughty little grey aliens that have come to Earth and stuffed aound with our world by travelling back and forth in time and screwing with peoples minds.

is there a Buddhist concept of hell, or is it just like never getting out of the cycle and attaining Nirvana that is a hell. i am sure i read that the Hindus profess a hell as a kind of literal place of torment.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
What would be the point of heaven if there wasn't a hell? i really dont know where to start with this. I suppose it would follow on from the idea that God is Love (if this is not a sufficient response just let me know and I will elaborate).
Maybe someone else could help me answering this wierd-ass question. (please)

Some folks suggest that hell is just death, In other words nonexistance. A person may not exist any more after death than they did before conception. If that was true then there would not be eternal punishment in the sense of the lake of fire or permanent torment etc... . Why do people continue to believe god is on their side and everyone else gets permanent torment. What if god does have a judgement day and those that would believe such a thing are actually bringing about their own judgement?

Originally posted by joe beyser
Some folks suggest that hell is just death, In other words nonexistance. A person may not exist any more after death than they did before conception. If that was true then there would not be eternal punishment in the sense of the lake of fire or permanent torment etc... . Why do people continue to believe god is on their side and everyone else gets perma ...[text shortened]... t day and those that would believe such a thing are actually bringing about their own judgement?

i am one of those persons who think that hell is just death.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Do you think a just punishment is one that is commensurate with the violation?

Consider that Jesus only had to suffer and die once, over the course of a few days, to pay for the sins of all of humanity. Yet your doctrine holds that even one individual non-Christian must spend an eternity in torment to pay for his sins alone. Doesn't this seem y for anybody else's sins, or at least earn them some time off from their eternal punishment?[/b]

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Do you think a just punishment is one that is commensurate with the violation?
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Yes.
But in this matter of the divine justice dispensed by God what I think is secondary. What the word of God says is what is most important.

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Consider that Jesus only had to suffer and die once, over the course of a few days, to pay for the sins of all of humanity.
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And you probably have no idea what it meant for Him to have done so.


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Yet your doctrine holds that even one individual non-Christian must spend an eternity in torment to pay for his sins alone.
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As you have no idea what it meant to God to have Christ bear the judgment of sin for the whole of humanity you also have no idea of the effect of your sins on the whole fabric of creation. You probably do not know what ripple effect on time and other persons your sins have.

Man is not in the position that he could judge what his penalty should be for his rebellion against God. In the same way that a congress of rapists could not be trusted to determine among themselves what the penalty for rape should be.

Sinners against the law of God cannot be trusted to decide what is a just penalty from God for their transgressions should be.

We should just believe God on this and thank Him that He has made gracious provision for our salvation from it.

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Doesn't this seem out of whack?
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What God's justice seems to me is not important. What His word says is what is important.

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I really struggle with the accounting here. If one lifetime of sin merits an actual eternity of punishment (that is, limitless punishment), how can Jesus have taken on the whole world's punishment over a weekend?
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Further, surely there are non-Christians who have suffered more horrible deaths than Jesus did. (Examples would include those burned at the stake at the hands of Christians.) Does their suffering pay for anybody else's sins, or at least earn them some time off from their eternal punishment?
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Whatever thier situation is that is probably not your situation.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i am one of those persons who think that hell is just death.

I would think that a loving God would go that route. I can not even imagine perpetual torture, or a God I would worship that has such a policy. I know that people believe that we get punished for our sins, and we must accept Christ for salvation. To me that is the same as being punished for not being christian. The whole thing seems humanistic to me.

Originally posted by joe beyser
I would think that a loving God would go that route. I can not even imagine perpetual torture, or a God I would worship that has such a policy. I know that people believe that we get punished for our sins, and we must accept Christ for salvation. To me that is the same as being punished for not being christian. The whole thing seems humanistic to me.

it is a very interesting an astute observation, let me share just one scriptural references with you, for it is relevant

(Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, . . .

now if we are conscious of nothing at all during death, how is it possible that we shall feel the pain of the so called eternal torment,

and yes you are correct, this is essentially a Greek model, for there we find many characters who are tortured eternally, for example there is a character who is chained to a rock and the ravens come and eat them up, they replenish themselves only to be eaten up again the next morning, or persons made to roll a huge stone up a gradient, only for it to fall to the bottom again etc etc etc.

Originally posted by joe beyser
Some folks suggest that hell is just death, In other words nonexistance. A person may not exist any more after death than they did before conception. If that was true then there would not be eternal punishment in the sense of the lake of fire or permanent torment etc... . Why do people continue to believe god is on their side and everyone else gets perma ...[text shortened]... t day and those that would believe such a thing are actually bringing about their own judgement?

Hell is not just death. That would be an easy way to escape your karma. Anyway energy cant be destroyed.
I believe there is a 'judgement day',however it differs greatly from the christian version. I believe our 'souls' go to a certain 'place' to get processed. You are taken back on your life and shown all the times that you have 'withheld love' . Ultimately it is you that decides where your 'soul' goes next,(in accordance with the guidelines of the universe).
Furthur, I would like to add that it is my contention that if you are alive now, on this planet, at this time, you should not be awaiting a new life after you die. Either reincarnated or in heaven .You should be aiming at escaping your karma and reaching nirvana. (as this is the basic thrust of all souls).

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Hell is not just death. That would be an easy way to escape your karma. Anyway energy cant be destroyed.
I believe there is a 'judgement day',however it differs greatly from the christian version. I believe our 'souls' go to a certain 'place' to get processed. You are taken back on your life and shown all the times that you have 'withheld love' . Ulti ...[text shortened]... escaping your karma and reaching nirvana. (as this is the basic thrust of all souls).

Well I have certainly pissed Karma off more than a few times. That one ole gal that don't forget! 🙂

Originally posted by joe beyser
Well I have certainly pissed Karma off more than a few times. That one ole gal that don't forget! 🙂

Well luckily we are moving out of the 'Law of Karma' and into the 'law of Grace' .
Yes the slate will be wiped clean. All we have to do is keep up with the transition.(see my thread on E.T. 101)

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Well luckily we are moving out of the 'Law of Karma' and into the 'law of Grace' .
Yes the slate will be wiped clean. All we have to do is keep up with the transition.(see my thread on E.T. 101)

I am not familiar with this form of religion. I would say a logical cause and effect belief system could be fathomable. I tend to go along the lines of George Coyne. He stated that we may not be the end product of gods creation. We may be just one of many branches of a tree that the trunk is the main body of creation. I don't know if it is true or not and I definately don't advocate it as truth, but it seems to tickle my fancy for some reason. Evil may be a neccesary part of creation. There is no indication I am aware of that there is a tormenting hell in his view. Just death. He did not say that however.

Originally posted by joe beyser
I am not familiar with this form of religion. I would say a logical cause and effect belief system could be fathomable. I tend to go along the lines of George Coyne. He stated that we may not be the end product of gods creation. We may be just one of many branches of a tree that the trunk is the main body of creation. I don't know if it is true or not and ...[text shortened]... aware of that there is a tormenting hell in his view. Just death. He did not say that however.

Whenever something 'tickles your fancy' there is probably something to it. After all it is your deeper senses trying to communicate with you.
I am not familiar with George Coyne but I like his analogy.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Yep,every one will EVENTUALLY go to heaven. Thats my contention. Following along the lines of "God is Love" this is a logical conclusion to reach.
Even Hitler and those naughty little grey aliens that have come to Earth and stuffed aound with our world by travelling back and forth in time and screwing with peoples minds.

What makes you think everyone will "eventually" end up in heaven?
Is it just your hope that is the case, you base that upon something
other than you wish it so? Why would God offer an eternal reward of
mercy to those that accept Him and not an eternal reward towards
those that reject Him that is different? It sort of makes the whole be
good thing worthless since everyone gets the same thing in the end
anyway, you think that is what a God who is Just and Holy will do?
Kelly