02 Apr 12
Originally posted by SwissGambitLet me ask you this. Do you see what Jesus saw as the law as being something quite different from what the scribes and Pharisees saw as the law? As something quite different from the law of the OT?
I don't buy that theory, for a few reasons:
1) Jesus is talking about something that already exists
If the law was something that the Jews didn't even have, that had not yet been 'written on their hearts', there would be nothing to destroy [or fulfill, for that matter]. You can't destroy something that doesn't exist.
2) Consider the Audience
Jesu ...[text shortened]... t destroy "the Prophets". Your theory does not account for this.
02 Apr 12
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI honestly have no idea. If Jesus was alive today, I would ask him which claim he would like to retract. Perhaps then I would know his true position.
Let me ask you this. Do you see what Jesus saw as the law as being something quite different from what the scribes and Pharisees saw as the law? As something quite different from the law of the OT?
02 Apr 12
Originally posted by SwissGambitLet me see if I understand you.
I honestly have no idea. If Jesus was alive today, I would ask him which claim he would like to retract. Perhaps then I would know his true position.
Jesus contradicted the scribes, Pharisees and the OT, yet you don't know if He saw the law differently than them?
02 Apr 12
This post is an aside, meant for those who enjoy research as I do. Watch as these writers twist themselves in knots in order to explain the apparent self-contradiction of Jesus.
An excellent analysis of "jot and tittle" in Matt 5:18, but then ignores the meaning of the verse entirely!
http://www.ukapologetics.net/Jesusandthelaw.html
Substitutes the weaker verse Luke 16:17 to get around 'until heaven and earth pass away'.
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/485-did-christ-abolish-the-law-of-moses
Insists on a figurative meaning of 'heaven and earth', pointing to 70AD. But this means the old law would persist in its entirety throughout Jesus' lifetime, and he would have been unable to strike any of it down.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/heaven-earth.html
02 Apr 12
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSo there will be a new covenant where God's law will be written on everyone's heart.
I suppose Jesus could have been that big an idiot, but there is another option. I was going to say, "No one's that big an idiot", but I only needed to think of some of the posters on this forum 🙂
So let's operate under the premise that Jesus saw the law as something other than what the Jews had. Something other than the OT law. If this is the case, th ...[text shortened]... re too hard to have the actual law written there. The law as Jesus saw it.
Comments?
This is consistent with Jesus' claim elsewhere of establishing a new covenent.
Presumably the old commandment was written in Deuteronomy 24:1 because their hearts were too hard to have the actual law written there. The law as Jesus saw it.
--------ToONE----------------------------------------
You quote passages regarding how God promises to write his law "on our hearts" and "put His law within us" with a "new covenant". But I'm not convinced you have really understood what all this is about and how Jesus's death relates to all this.
The truth is that the new covenant is Jesus. His death (as the Passover Lamb he clearly alluded to) makes this new covenant with man and releases the Holy Spirit to impart the law in us. Notice that Jesus also says that the Holy Spirit will be "in you" and will guides us "in all truth". This is how the law is written on our hearts. The Holy Spirit convicts our hearts but also has the ability to transform and melt hardened hearts.
I have never seen you have any appreciation of Jesus as anything more than just a good teacher. He clearly talked about the Holy Spirit and what his death was to achieve for men but you consistently have nothing to say about it.
Come on ToOne it's time to put ALL the jigsaw pieces together not just some of them.
02 Apr 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterWould you please take this discussion to another thread? It's off-topic for this one.
So there will be a new covenant where God's law will be written on everyone's heart.
This is consistent with Jesus' claim elsewhere of establishing a new covenent.
Presumably the old commandment was written in Deuteronomy 24:1 because their hearts were too hard to have the actual law written there. The law as Jesus saw it.
--------ToONE---- ...[text shortened]... on ToOne it's time to put ALL the jigsaw pieces together not just some of them.
02 Apr 12
Originally posted by SwissGambitNot really. It makes no logical sense. For instance, you agree that Jesus contradicted the OT, but you don't know if He saw the law differently from the OT. The example from Leviticus that you agreed was contradicted by Jesus is a part of Levitical LAW. How can he both contradict the law and not see it differently?
Already answered.
02 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneMaybe his contradiction of the law was not sincere. It is possible to advocate for or against certain positions without believing them yourself. Just ask your lawyer or Congressman or anyone who has been on a debate team.
Not really. It makes no logical sense. For instance, you agree that Jesus contradicted the OT, but you don't know if He saw the law differently from the OT. The example from Leviticus that you agreed was contradicted by Jesus is a part of Levitical LAW. How can he both contradict the law and not see it differently?
02 Apr 12
2 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambitC'mon, you're really grasping at straws here. I really have to wonder about YOUR sincerity. I was already having doubts, but this puts it way over the top.
Maybe his contradiction of the law was not sincere. It is possible to advocate for or against certain positions without believing them yourself. Just ask your lawyer or Congressman or anyone who has been on a debate team.
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus told an audience of multitudes the following:
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
He told them that in order to ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, they needed to have a level of righteousness that exceeded the scribes and Pharisees.
He proceeded to cite several examples of where the level of righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees fell short, one of which was the following:
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
So in your mind Jesus may have not believed any of this, but still emphatically told those people they needed to follow it in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.
In effect, Jesus would have to have been lying to those people about what he believed was required to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Seriously?
02 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'm going to have to re-state my argument since you're apparently having trouble following it.
C'mon, you're really grasping at straws here. I really have to wonder about YOUR sincerity. I was already having doubts, but this puts it way over the top.
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus told an audience of multitudes the following:
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the ...[text shortened]... those people about what he believed was required to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Seriously?
Jesus' claims:
1) You must follow the OT Law in its entirety, down to the least commandment. If you do not, you will be either demoted in, or denied entrance to, the kingdom of Heaven.
2) You must not follow certain OT Laws because they are incorrect entirely, or incorrectly worded/interpreted.
The 2 claims cannot both be true. Either Jesus knowingly lied about something, or he lacked the mental capacity to recognize the contradiction.
I am not claiming that Jesus lied about his position on certain OT laws. It is merely a logical possibility.
03 Apr 12
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI always took the scribes and pharisees as people who were unrighteous. I don't think it would be very hard to qualify.
C'mon, you're really grasping at straws here. I really have to wonder about YOUR sincerity. I was already having doubts, but this puts it way over the top.
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus told an audience of multitudes the following:
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the ...[text shortened]... those people about what he believed was required to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Seriously?