Spirituality
13 Aug 13
13 Aug 13
Originally posted by Rank outsiderHere's an interesting thought - if several "followers of another god" claimed the same evidence for the existence of "their god", how about the likelihood that all their gods in the final analysis are the same?
I mean, can you name one piece of 'evidence' that your God is the one true God which could not be claimed with equal validity by followers of another god?
Your challenge seems to me to be for one particular group of "believers" to provide evidence to you for the existence of a very specific, exclusive god, rather than for evidence for the existence of a universal god. Which, for any god to be worth his or her salt, would have to be the case.
The latter would be, for me at least, the more useful challenge.
13 Aug 13
1 edit
Following on from my earlier post, I would paraphrase CS Lewis as to evidence for God. This would be the innate sense in every human being of a sense of "Justice".
For example, if you stand in a line (or queue) and somebody barges in, your immediate reaction is "Hey, that's not fair!" The question is: Where does this thought come from? who said it was fair or not? Who said life was supposed to be fair? Animals have no such sense - if an animal jostles another it may risk getting bitten, but there is no sense of "first come first served."
This is just one of many examples, and this cannot be explained under evolutionary theory.
However, this sense of a universal need for Fairness and Justice cannot be claimed exclusively by Christianity - it is common in almost every religion. For this reason it could be argued that every religion or belief system that has this central tenet, will be worshipping the same kind of god - one whose core essence is Justice - which in Christianity is tempered by Love and Mercy.
There's your evidence, for what its worth, but it is not one of exclusivity. Sorry
13 Aug 13
Originally posted by CalJustI did a quick Google for 'justice traits in animals' and this came up tops. I have read it all, but there is a lot of info and links to rummage through if you so fancy.
Following on from my earlier post, I would paraphrase CS Lewis as to evidence for God. This would be the innate sense in every human being of a sense of "Justice".
For example, if you stand in a line (or queue) and somebody barges in, your immediate reaction is "Hey, that's not fair!" The question is: Where does this thought come from? who said it was fai ...[text shortened]... y.
There's your evidence, for what its worth, but it is not one of exclusivity. Sorry
http://jessicapierce.net/?page_id=17
13 Aug 13
Originally posted by CalJustActually human behaviour with regards to justice is perfectly explained by evolution, all the little quirks are explained quite nicely. It is not however explained by religion. If anything, the only way you could explain human behaviour in a theistic setting is to say that God made us that way so that we could survive in an evolutionary setting, or that God created us via evolution.
This is just one of many examples, and this cannot be explained under evolutionary theory.
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No, I promise you that if you can provide me with just one piece of evidence that could not be claimed with equal validity by followers of another religion, I would consider my question answered and would pursue the matter no further.
We agreed that we were not looking for proof, just evidence, and I will be content if you can provide a single piece on the terms I stated.
LOL !! Promise huh ?
Well, Rank, I already gave you my "First" reason. As I reflect on this question honestly, reviewing my life's experience, I think the topmost evidence I know of for God's existence is Jesus Christ.
So this is said by way of repetition.
Now I am not sure what you mean by " could not be claimed with equal validity by followers of another religion ". You are asking me. I give you my consideration of the strongest evidence for God's existence.
I cannot guarantee that a Bahai, or Moslem, or Hindu will or will not say something similar or disimilar, as the case may be. You ask me. And among several evidences for God's existence, the strongest as far as I am concerned is Jesus Christ.
13 Aug 13
Originally posted by CalJustHi CalJust,
Here's an interesting thought - if several "followers of another god" claimed the same evidence for the existence of "their god", how about the likelihood that all their gods in the final analysis are the same?
Your challenge seems to me to be for one particular group of "believers" to provide evidence to you for the existence of a very specific, exclusiv ...[text shortened]... have to be the case.
The latter would be, for me at least, the more useful challenge.
It's been a while, I think.
I am not really directing my comments simply at an exclusive god. It's just that this is what most theists on this forum claim.
And yet they have no reason whatsoever to believe they have identified the one true god, and they would most likely have believed in another god had they been born in another place and time.
Interestingly, I have raised this point a few times, and it always amazes me that some Christians here seem to believe that, if they had been born in Pakistan to Muslim parents, they would nevertheless have found their way to Jesus Christ.
Which is patently absurd, but most just can't, or won't, admit it.
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13 Aug 13
2 edits
And yet they have no reason whatsoever to believe they have identified the one true god, and they would most likely have believed in another god had they been born in another place and time.
Interestingly, I have raised this point a few times, and it always amazes me that some Christians here seem to believe that, if they had been born in Pakistan to Muslim parents, they would nevertheless have found their way to Jesus Christ.
Which is patently absurd, but most just can't, or won't, admit it.
I think you ride this horse a bit too far.
Why are there not ONLY English versions of the New Testament being printed ? Why is the Bible translated into more languages probably than any other book ?
If the God of the Bible is exclusively the interest of, say, Western countries why the millions of Christians in China meeting underground ? They have the Bible in Chinese.
Why the millions in Africa?
Why the millions in India?
Why the millions in Russia and in the former Soviet Union ?
Why the Far East and the Middle East has Christians, and growing ?
I don't understand people not appreciating that timing is a factor in the learning of truth. Truth my begin to be proclaimed in one geographic area and move out and beyond. This may take time.
The Gospel of Christ is overflowing its suspected boundaries for centuries, widening, spreading, growing, being passed on from one culture to another.
" ... and you shall be My Witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)
Do you deny that the Gospel of Christ has spread to "the uttermost part of the earth" ?
13 Aug 13
Originally posted by CalJustThat's your evidence? 🙄🙄
Following on from my earlier post, I would paraphrase CS Lewis as to evidence for God. This would be the innate sense in every human being of a sense of "Justice".
For example, if you stand in a line (or queue) and somebody barges in, your immediate reaction is "Hey, that's not fair!" The question is: Where does this thought come from? who said it was fai ...[text shortened]... y.
There's your evidence, for what its worth, but it is not one of exclusivity. Sorry
This post does not provide any evidence for God. It provides evidence for the idea that you have not done your homework on evolutionary theory.
13 Aug 13
Originally posted by sonship97% of Pakistan's population is Muslim.
[quote] And yet they have no reason whatsoever to believe they have identified the one true god, and they would most likely have believed in another god had they been born in another place and time.
Interestingly, I have raised this point a few times, and it always amazes me that some Christians here seem to believe that, if they had been born in Pakistan ...[text shortened]... u deny that the Gospel of Christ has spread to [b]"the uttermost part of the earth" ?[/b]
The overwhelming likelihood is that, if you had been born there to Muslim parents, you would have been a Muslim,
The rest of your post is just not relevant. As usual, you make assumptions about what I claimed that I did not make and introduce a lot of irrelevancies.
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13 Aug 13
4 edits
97% of Pakistan's population is Muslim.
The overwhelming likelihood is that, if you had been born there to Muslim parents, you would have been a Muslim,
You cannot go totally by this.
For centuries if one was born in China the overwhelming likelihood is that one never heard of Jesus. Since the prayers of many Christians, since the China Inland Mission, since the indigenous believers there there is a different percentage today.
There is more chance that on the mainland of China one would hear the Gospel of Christ (allbeit underground) and receive Christ as Lord and Savior.
How can you think that freezing statistics at a moment in time proves anything ?
The rest of your post is just not relevant. As usual, you make assumptions about what I claimed that I did not make and introduce a lot of irrelevancies.
Like I said, in which you protested, you wish to demonstrate that you can always come up with at least an arguable alternative explanation to the evidence of God's existence.
Your promise has not been kept too long.
13 Aug 13
Originally posted by sonshipOh dear.
[quote] No, I promise you that if you can provide me with just one piece of evidence that could not be claimed with equal validity by followers of another religion, I would consider my question answered and would pursue the matter no further.
We agreed that we were not looking for proof, just evidence, and I will be content if you can provide a single pie ...[text shortened]... nces for God's existence, the strongest as far as I am concerned is [b]Jesus Christ.[/b]
You think evidence is the same as 'why I personally believe in the God of the Bible'.
Let's see if a thought experiment would help.
Imagine if there was a being with no innate prejudices or assumptions about which God is the true God.
So it asks you and a Muslim 'What is the evidence that your God is the true one?'
You answer 'My evidence is Jesus Christ.'
The Muslim answers 'My evidence is Muhammad'.
Would you expect that this being would consider either of those positions as evidence supporting the view in favour of Christianity or Islam?
No, nor would I. So your example fails the conditions I set.