11 Mar 14
Originally posted by yoctobyteOkay, we start from the beginning, as I think christians see it, according to the bible.Have I understood you correctly?
Maybe you should read my post, you should at least do the decent thing and try to understand the point I am making which I believe is relevant to your question... before asking me questions related to it.
And no, you have not understood me correctly!
[quote]So some of the creation is not of god, ri ...[text shortened]... apons, biological and chemical agents, etc... all creation, not of God! Does this help clarify?
(1) Eden. Everything is good. Cancer did not exist, not even a possibility of cancer.
(2) Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Evil entered the world. Cancer was created by satan.
(3) Everyone in the future, from A&E and on, may suffer of cancer.
Correct so far?
11 Mar 14
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasIf a creator created cancer why would that be considered evil?
Who can anyone say that the intelligent designer, or the creator is loving and caring? This supernatural being is right on evil.
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-03-uv-aids-cancer-cells-blood.html
Why has god created cancer? Even innocent children get cancer. Lethal cancer. Why?
Is this a regrettable flaw in his creation or is the intelligent d ...[text shortened]... igner not so intelligent after all?
What is the usual christian explanation of this evilness?
1/3 get cancer so I think it would be because the fall of man and the Environment after the flood, Also our bodies are made a little different than those before the flood.
11 Mar 14
Whether God 'designed' cancer or not, he could stop it if he wished. The fact that he does not speaks volumes.
Imagine if a human parent had the money to pay for removal of a cancerous tumor from their child. Say they refused, citing the child's rebellious nature. They think chemotherapy will build character.
What would we say about these parents?
11 Mar 14
Originally posted by RBHILL"Also our bodies are made a little different than those before the flood."
If a creator created cancer why would that be considered evil?
1/3 get cancer so I think it would be because the fall of man and the Environment after the flood, Also our bodies are made a little different than those before the flood.
So god recreated the biology of humans? Are you kidding?
"If a creator created cancer why would that be considered evil?"
So when you get cancer, then you thing it's good? "God gave me cancer so it must be good!"?
Your answer differs from other christians. Are you a christian?
There is no way that when I see lethal cancer of children that I can see any good in this. Thy are innocent, they haven't done anything bad. So if this is a deliberate act of god, then he must be evil. Period.
11 Mar 14
Originally posted by SwissGambitIf I can save a cat from drowning, I would do it.
Whether God 'designed' cancer or not, he could stop it if he wished. The fact that he does not speaks volumes.
Imagine if a human parent had the money to pay for removal of a cancerous tumor from their child. Say they refused, citing the child's rebellious nature. They think chemotherapy will build character.
What would we say about these parents?
If god can save humanity from having cancer, would he do it? Apparently not.
The example of the parents: Do you think they are good parents? Loving and caring? I don't. By this, do you mean that god is not good god, that he is not loving and caring? Yes, I agree. I would consider him evil.
11 Mar 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasWell, yes. The question is rhetorical, because (I hope) we would all answer it the same way. The parents are cold, callous, aloof, and cruel.
If I can save a cat from drowning, I would do it.
If god can save humanity from having cancer, would he do it? Apparently not.
The example of the parents: Do you think they are good parents? Loving and caring? I don't. By this, do you mean that god is not good god, that he is not loving and caring? Yes, I agree. I would consider him evil.
The last thing we would do is recognize their great compassion and laud their long-term plan of redemption for their child. Only in bizarro-land, which is where theists tend to hang out when trying to reconcile the unspeakable horrors that certain people endure with the so-called 'compassionate and loving' God that presides over it all.
11 Mar 14
Originally posted by SwissGambitThe thing that bothers me is that christians cannot answer this question. Some avoid it altogether, some give me a load of paste© in hope that I would read some bible in the effort to find the answer. Some say this, some say that. Some are huffing and puffing about my effort to find an answer that fits into my view how a loving and caring god (or parent) would be. Noone seems to know to this important question, noone seem to care.
Well, yes. The question is rhetorical, because (I hope) we would all answer it the same way. The parents are cold, callous, aloof, and cruel.
The last thing we would do is recognize their great compassion and laud their long-term plan of redemption for their child. Only in bizarro-land, which is where theists tend to hang out when trying to reconcile ...[text shortened]... rtain people endure with the so-called 'compassionate and loving' God that presides over it all.
The question is well defined. The answer should be simple. I wouldn't say that the christian ideology is holding together. And this is only one of the many paradoxes there is in the christian religion. In my opinion.
11 Mar 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasI think this is the beginning...
Okay, we start from the beginning, as I think christians see it, according to the bible.
(1) Eden. Everything is good. Cancer did not exist, not even a possibility of cancer.
(2) Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Evil entered the world. Cancer was created by satan.
(3) Everyone in the future, from A&E and on, may suffer of cancer.
Correct so far?
Who can anyone say that the intelligent designer, or the creator is loving and caring? This supernatural being is right on evil.
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-03-uv-aids-cancer-cells-blood.html
Why has god created cancer? Even innocent children get cancer. Lethal cancer. Why?
Is this a regrettable flaw in his creation or is the intelligent designer not so intelligent after all?
What is the usual christian explanation of this evilness?
Is this the beginning you mean? I think this is going off topic, but I will answer you questions as best as I can.
Okay, we start from the beginning, as I think christians see it, according to the bible.
I think in all fairness, if you are not a Christian and if not mistaken, I believe that to be the case. You should ask what Christians think about a thing, not ask questions as you think Christians see it... according to the Bible. There is a difference.
(1) Eden. Everything is good. Cancer did not exist, not even a possibility of cancer.
Genesis 1
New King James Version (NKJV)
The History of Creation
31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Having not been in the garden, I gleen from the Bible, that it was all good, very good in fact.
(2) Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Evil entered the world. Cancer was created by satan.
Genesis 3
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
The serpent was already present in the world/garden (and evil along with it I would surmise but powerless except for deception) Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the fruit which was commanded not to eat of, they gave the serpent (Satan) 'permission'; and sin was released onto man and the perfect relationship between God and man was severed.
(3) Everyone in the future, from A&E and on, may suffer of cancer.
Whom am I to say, sickness is sickness... we live in the fallen world in which these things may happen to us, to some they don't... it's part of our humanity and nature. I don't have all the answers on these things and it is a bit of a mystery to be honest, but this is my understanding. Perhaps some of the other Christians in the forum can help fill in the blanks if you are not satisfied with this.
11 Mar 14
Originally posted by FabianFnas
The thing that bothers me is that christians cannot answer this question. Some avoid it altogether, some give me a load of paste© in hope that I would read some bible in the effort to find the answer. Some say this, some say that. Some are huffing and puffing about my effort to find an answer that fits into my view how a loving and caring god (or pare ...[text shortened]... r. And this is only one of the many paradoxes there is in the christian religion. In my opinion.
The question is well defined. The answer should be simple. I wouldn't say that the christian ideology is holding together. And this is only one of the many paradoxes there is in the christian religion. In my opinion.
I don't think you question is as well defined as you think. You make an assumption and then expect an answer to that assumption. God did not create cancer, sickness, sin, etc., period. Speaking for myself, I gave you an answer and you just don't like it which is fine, but it is a straight forward answer, with a little reading to boot! 😉
11 Mar 14
Originally posted by yoctobyteNo, sometimes I have the cold, and I recover. To recover from cancer is harder to recover. So sickness is not only sickness.
Whom am I to say, sickness is sickness... we live in the fallen world in which these things may happen to us, to some they don't... it's part of our humanity and nature. I don't have all the answers on these things and it is a bit of a mystery to be honest, but this is my understanding. Perhaps some of the other Christians in the forum can help fill in the blanks if you are not satisfied with this.
Should we just give up and say, well, I have cancer so I will die. It's gods will because of the A&E story, so to go against him it's a sin.
No, no! Cancer is evil. God can get rid of it, and he doesn't. Satan seems mightier than god himself.
Of course it is a mystery. It's more than that - it's a paradox.
11 Mar 14
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnas
No, sometimes I have the cold, and I recover. To recover from cancer is harder to recover. So sickness is not only sickness.
Should we just give up and say, well, I have cancer so I will die. It's gods will because of the A&E story, so to go against him it's a sin.
No, no! Cancer is evil. God can get rid of it, and he doesn't. Satan seems mightier than god himself.
Of course it is a mystery. It's more than that - it's a paradox.
Should we just give up and say, well, I have cancer so I will die. It's gods will because of the A&E story, so to go against him it's a sin.
Is this what you get from my comments? Man you are really out in left field.
No, no! Cancer is evil. God can get rid of it, and he doesn't. Satan seems mightier than god himself
God can get rid of cancer and does. If you ask, I am sure any number of people in this forum can attest to God's healing for any number of ailments, even cancer. But then again, because of the hostility of some and mocking may choose not to because it is a precious thing and may choose to not have it trampled under foot. For the record, satan is a created being and is not mightier than God. One day he is going to realize the full measure of God's wrath for what he has done.
11 Mar 14
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasI think a Christian can make a case that cancer is not designed by God. But they must take the acceptability of god's allowance of suffering on faith; they must believe that it is for some sort of greater good, or higher purpose. Even if they have no idea what the higher purpose is.
The thing that bothers me is that christians cannot answer this question. Some avoid it altogether, some give me a load of paste© in hope that I would read some bible in the effort to find the answer. Some say this, some say that. Some are huffing and puffing about my effort to find an answer that fits into my view how a loving and caring god (or pare ...[text shortened]... r. And this is only one of the many paradoxes there is in the christian religion. In my opinion.
12 Mar 14
Originally posted by SwissGambitDoes this mean that I shouldn't care? That as we don't know anything about how god thinks, then we shouldn't even guess? That we should remain in ignorance...? Is this the way a christian should think?
I think a Christian can make a case that cancer is not designed by God. But they must take the acceptability of god's allowance of suffering on faith; they must believe that it is for some sort of greater good, or higher purpose. Even if they have no idea what the higher purpose is.
That's not a kind of christian I would like to be.
Perhaps I just put this paradox along with with all the other paradoxes about the christian beliefs. My list of paradoxes are growing.
12 Mar 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasHere is another: A&E in the garden bit. They had children, apparently more than the big 2. So here they are, a family with many kids. Eve eats the forbidden fruit. 1) why was the fruit forbidden? A god would have known in advance the outcome of any such edict so why make it in the first place.
Does this mean that I shouldn't care? That as we don't know anything about how god thinks, then we shouldn't even guess? That we should remain in ignorance...? Is this the way a christian should think?
That's not a kind of christian I would like to be.
Perhaps I just put this paradox along with with all the other paradoxes about the christian beliefs. My list of paradoxes are growing.
And 2) Eve eats the 'forbidden' fruit. Then instead of Eve getting punished, this ever so merciful god condemns the entire human race.
Exactly why should a son or daughter and all the rest of humanity get punished for the felony of Eve?
That makes absolutely no sense.
A god, who is supposedly omniscient, knows all, sees all, knows the beginning, middle and end of EVERYTHING.
So this god, knowing full well Eve would eat the forbidden fruit, does so willfully, knowing in advance it would be kicking humans out of the alleged garden.
Yessir, that is one great god you have there.
12 Mar 14
Originally posted by sonhouseThe Adam & Eve story is a legend. If we believe in it as facts, then we get ourselves in trouble, because there are all kinds of traps here. Paradoxes.
... And 2) Eve eats the 'forbidden' fruit. Then instead of Eve getting punished, this ever so merciful god condemns the entire human race.
Exactly why should a son or daughter and all the rest of humanity get punished for the felony of Eve?
That makes absolutely no sense.
A god, who is supposedly omniscient, knows all, sees all, knows the beginni ...[text shortened]... ld be kicking humans out of the alleged garden.
Yessir, that is one great god you have there.
When I read the fable of "How elefants got its trunk" I enjoy it a lot. But do I take it as facts? No way. It's just a story made to answer childrens questions in an amusing ways. The children understand that it is just a nice story, nothing more.
Stories that was told thousands of years ago, to amuse children, around the camp fires, and the feasts to entertain guests. Everyone knew that it was just stories.
And then it went religion. It was written down and collected into a book later called the bible. The bible doesn't tell us why the elephant has a trunk, but it tells us why snakes haven't any legs. It tells us that the bat is a kind of bird, it tells us why the people of god is always right, it tells us when it is okay to rape, and when it is okay to kill people, it tells us what to eat and what not to eat, it tells us that homosexuality between men is bad, but doesn't say anything about homosexuality between women. And it says why there are evil in the world.
But we are not children of need of amusements. We are not guests in a feast that need entertainment. We live in the year of 2014 and we are supposed to think for ourselves. We should know that we shouldn't fear some supernatural entity in the sky, but we should also know that we should fear fundamentalism and terrorists making their deeds with the holy scripture in one hand and the weapon in the other one.
We are all modern people who don't have to believe in the ancient legends anymore. We shouldn't read the bible to understand why there is cancer among us, because the truth is not there. The bible is written by men with an agenda.