Evolution Q & A

@very-rusty said
If Trump said it was raining out I would have to look to see if what he was saying was true! 🙂

-VR

Your political instincts are clearly well evolved, Mister Rusty.

@very-rusty said
If Trump said it was raining out I would have to look to see if what he was saying was true! 🙂

-VR

I would not need to look, as I assume he's lying. Aesop would tell us the boy in his story who shouts wolf, wolf, is none other than Donald Trump when he was a boy. Today Donald has grown and evolved to become the wolf.

"How then does a protector begin to change into a tyrant? Clearly when he does what the man is said to do in the tale of the Arcadian temple of Lycaean Zeus.

What tale?

The tale is that he who has tasted the entrails of a single human victim minced up with the entrails of other victims is destined to become a wolf. Did you never hear it?

Oh, yes.

And the protector of the people is like him; having a mob entirely at his disposal, he is not restrained from shedding the blood of kinsmen; by the favourite method of false accusation he brings them into court and murders them, making the life of man to disappear, and with unholy tongue and lips tasting the blood of his fellow citizens; some he kills and others he banishes, at the same time hinting at the abolition of debts and partition of lands: and after this, what will be his destiny? Must he not either perish at the hands of his enemies, or from being a man become a wolf—that is, a tyrant?"

@indonesia-phil said
So now we have random genetic changes from one generation to another, (whatever happened to your 'error checking'? ) and natural selection, both natural processes which you now accept as true, so what happened to 'god does everything'?

This a ideological question about God or genetics?

@kellyjay said
This a ideological question about God or genetics?

I think it strikes at the root of that which we've been discussing. It's about your oft - stated belief that your god is in control of everything, all the time, and your now apparent acceptance that natural processes occur, randomly and by chance, which can't of course both be the case. You know, genetic mutations for example, which are self - evident and which are either benign, disadvantageous (in which case they will not be passed on to the next generation) or advantageous (in which case they will. ) That, in its' simplest form, is one of the major factors which effect the evolution of species. Or then again your god might have made all the animals, and if that's what you want to believe then that's fine, but in that case leave the science to the scientists, and stop contradicting yourself.

@indonesia-phil said
I think it strikes at the root of that which we've been discussing. It's about your oft - stated belief that your god is in control of everything, all the time, and your now apparent acceptance that natural processes occur, randomly and by chance, which can't of course both be the case. You know, genetic mutations for example, which are self - evident and which are eit ...[text shortened]... that's fine, but in that case leave the science to the scientists, and stop contradicting yourself.

You really should just say God is rejected no matter what, so He cannot play a part in any answer! Stop attempting to use the universe to prove it, what is going on in the universe does matter to you! The arguments you and others here use typically are based upon worldview compliance, which is to say I'm presenting something that falls outside of your worldview so you will not accept it, no matter what the argument or evidence is! You by default reject God, it isn't an evidence-based conclusion or you'd examine evidence, and take what is offered seriously, it is all ideology nothing more nothing less.

It does not matter the odds, only a materialistic answer is acceptable, it doesn't matter that there is information processing going on in life that can also be ignored even though the same types of things occur with electronic signals as with biological molecules. No one has an issue identifying the information processing taking place in our computers, but relate that to biology, even though in biology it is a far greater level of systematic functional complexity. You just insert a connection with anything spiritual, no matter how trivial, and you can dismiss a universe of evidence.

@kellyjay said
Have you anything that is not ideological in nature, something you know is testable, which could be validating what you suggest is true? Perhaps you could explain something with logic that validates what you think is true.

Something factual would be nice, instead of this telling everyone what your opinions about me are.

Now instead of all the other gibberish about sand dunes and what not, your explaining what you think my political views are

Yes, I do have something to offer. The COVID virus mutated into a less lethal variant. If a virus quickly kills the first host it infects, it does not propagate very far. Whereas, if the first infected host lives long enough to infect many more hosts, the less-lethal virus propagates much farther, whereas the more-lethal variant of the virus dies out because its hosts die quickly. Evolution in action, right before our eyes. This is testable, and the proof is that we don't need vaccines or boosters against the current COVID variant because it has mutated to a less-lethal form.

Now, the ball's in your court to show evidence that the Hand of God is what jiggles the molecules which drive mutations. How are you and Prof. Tour coming along with the transcendental causality detector?

@moonbus said
Yes, I do have something to offer. The COVID virus mutated into a less lethal variant. If a virus quickly kills the first host it infects, it does not propagate very far. Whereas, if the first infected host lives long enough to infect many more hosts, the less-lethal virus propagates much farther, whereas the more-lethal variant of the virus dies out because its hosts die qui ...[text shortened]... drive mutations. How are you and Prof. Tour coming along with the transcendental causality detector?

We are under a curse as well as the world that was placed in our command before the fall of man, and in God's forbearance in our decay, He promised a Savior. Now, your worldview compliance will not accept anything about God, no explanation, no matter how rational it comes to you, why do you present such questions when you have no intention of actually considering anything that rattles the box you put God and the universe in? Seeing something as simple as level checking that is acknowledged in the digital world seeing the same type of thing occur in the biological world is ignored. If you can ignore things like this and outright deny them what makes any argument meaningful since it isn't the evidence you look at, you only look to see if it fits your worldview.

Dr. Tour is an award-winning scientist with published papers, and patients, and builds things at the molecular level, and you ignore the accomplishments, as you do all evidence that doesn't fit your worldview, it simply doesn't fit your worldview, what does anything matter, accept your ideology, that for you is the only thing you look at.

@kellyjay said
We are under a curse as well as the world that was placed in our command before the fall of man, and in God's forbearance in our decay, He promised a Savior. Now, your worldview compliance will not accept anything about God, no explanation, no matter how rational it comes to you, why do you present such questions when you have no intention of actually considering anything th ...[text shortened]... ldview, what does anything matter, accept your ideology, that for you is the only thing you look at.

Seeing something as simple as level checking that is acknowledged in the digital world seeing the same type of thing occur in the biological world is ignored.

There is no level checking going on in biology. You're projecting anthropomorphic metaphors onto nature. It's the same blunder as 'seeing' Taurus and Orion and Capricorn in the stars at night: it's just a human projection. What's really happening in stars is a chemical reaction, fusion, hydrogen turning into helium. Same thing in viruses and DNA: there is no information there and no error checking going on, it's just chemicals. Calling it "error checking" is a human projection, like 'seeing' Capricorn in the stars.

"Dr. Tour is an award-winning scientist with published papers, and patients, and builds things at the molecular level, and you ignore the accomplishments,..." Sometimes even award-winning scientists make mistakes. Take a look at serious peer-reviewed scientific documentation on evolution, for example about how viruses mutate or how monkeys communicate (I linked to several articles in a previous thread); no one there invokes God as a scientific explanation for how natural selection or genetic mutation works.

So, how is Dr. Tour's transcendental causality detector coming along? Got a patent registered yet? Invoking a God you can't detect is not science, it's ideology.

@moonbus said
Yes, I do have something to offer. The COVID virus mutated into a less lethal variant. If a virus quickly kills the first host it infects, it does not propagate very far. Whereas, if the first infected host lives long enough to infect many more hosts, the less-lethal virus propagates much farther, whereas the more-lethal variant of the virus dies out because its hosts die qui ...[text shortened]... drive mutations. How are you and Prof. Tour coming along with the transcendental causality detector?

I have something to offer a quote from a gentleman named, Leonard Brillouin. "A machine does not create any new information, but it performs a very valuable transformation of known information."

This is trouble for those who think a lifeform's body can molecularly come together, and then acquire everything it needs to replicate, protect itself against outside and internal dangers, feed itself, and the list goes on, isn't seen anywhere except in the imaginations of those who wish it true.

Well, all of those things would be brand-new features, not known before. There is nothing to suggest they could not arise out of abiogenesis, so a blind watchmaker's chance and necessity to create life would fail out of the starting block, falling to the impossible.

There is nothing even in an established lifeform that would allow mindless evolutionary forces to create new features and forms with new information being self-generating. No processing biological or even digital alters itself to turn into something more complex through chance and necessity, if there were not something already there to select it would only be able to deal with what was currently established. Now, if all you have to refute is it doesn't fit your worldview, these thoughts are not in compliance you can just say evolution did it without explaining how, and pretend, that's life, it is just the way it is! You may feel that is enough, but it doesn't fit the box you have everything in so it doesn't matter.

It makes for good sci-fiction, Terminator, Tron, and I Robot but not in reality.

@moonbus said
Seeing something as simple as level checking that is acknowledged in the digital world seeing the same type of thing occur in the biological world is ignored.

There is no level checking going on in biology. You're projecting anthropomorphic metaphors onto nature. It's the same blunder as 'seeing' Taurus and Orion and Capricorn in the stars at night: it's just a huma ...[text shortened]... g along? Got a patent registered yet? Invoking a God you can't detect is not science, it's ideology.

You are willfully blind ignoring body temperature, blood pressure, and a host of other vital features in life where levels must be maintained. If you think there is no level checking, it is right in front of you, but you cannot see it. You cannot see not because it isn't there, you cannot get past anything that does not fit your godless worldview, if it isn't in compliance with the box you put reality in, it isn't part of reality. If you cannot see the obvious due to your blinders, the complex is simply way past your comprehension.

@kellyjay said
I have something to offer a quote from a gentleman named, Leonard Brillouin. "A machine does not create any new information, but it performs a very valuable transformation of known information."

This is trouble for those who think a lifeform's body can molecularly come together, and then acquire everything it needs to replicate, protect itself against outside and internal ...[text shortened]... doesn't matter.

It makes for good sci-fiction, Terminator, Tron, and I Robot but not in reality.

Organisms are not machines.

@kellyjay said
You are willfully blind ignoring body temperature, blood pressure, and a host of other vital features in life where levels must be maintained. If you think there is no level checking, it is right in front of you, but you cannot see it. You cannot see not because it isn't there, you cannot get past anything that does not fit your godless worldview, if it isn't in compliance ...[text shortened]... you cannot see the obvious due to your blinders, the complex is simply way past your comprehension.

I am not ignoring body temperature at all. I'm only saying that there is no evidence that God is doing it. We do not disagree about the effects. We both see the same effects, body temperature or whatever. Where we disagree is on the cause. Where I see material effects, I assume material causes. This is basic to science, and Prof. Tour is very much in the minority in supposing a supernatural cause for a material effect.

Let us know when you have a supernatural causality detector up and running.

@moonbus said
Organisms are not machines.

You squabble about the most ridiculous things.

@moonbus said
I am not ignoring body temperature at all. I'm only saying that there is no evidence that God is doing it. We do not disagree about the effects. We both see the same effects, body temperature or whatever. Where we disagree is on the cause. Where I see material effects, I assume material causes. This is basic to science, and Prof. Tour is very much in the minorit ...[text shortened]... or a material effect.

Let us know when you have a supernatural causality detector up and running.

That is not what you have been saying. You simply prove my point you ignore evidence not because of the evidence but it simply doesn’t fit in your worldview.

@kellyjay said
You really should just say God is rejected no matter what, so He cannot play a part in any answer! Stop attempting to use the universe to prove it, what is going on in the universe does matter to you! The arguments you and others here use typically are based upon worldview compliance, which is to say I'm presenting something that falls outside of your worldview so you will ...[text shortened]... nnection with anything spiritual, no matter how trivial, and you can dismiss a universe of evidence.

Loads of stuff to try to unpick here, and unlike you I will try to answer. You begin all thoughts with the assumption that there is a god, I don't; why should I think there is any god to 'reject'? What exactly do you think I'm trying to 'prove' by 'using the universe'? I'm not trying to prove the non - existence of god, (if that's what you mean) why should I bother, if no god exists to me in the first place? 'What's going on in the universe' matters to me in as much as I find it interesting, but it's not essential to my or anyone else's life, is it. I daresay people get by quite well never thinking about 'what's going on in the universe.' The arguments you and others here use typically are based upon religious compliance; all religion is learned, you are only a Christian because that is the dominant religion where you happen to have been born, nothing more, and can you give me one reason why I should 'accept' your god? There is no 'evidence' for your god whatsoever, you only perceive what you see as evidence because you begin all thoughts with the assumption that there is a god. Nature is complex, and wonderful, so what? Your last sentence makes no sense.