Originally posted by black beetleok dear beetle you need to speak as if to a child to help me grasp this idea, if something neither exists nor is non existence, what are we talking about? Is it a potentiality? like we were before we were conceived in the womb? our mothers and fathers having a potential to bring to birth a child, not yet conceived, but never the less, the properties for conception existed?
Sure thing; each one follows her/ his way😵
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt is not a potentiality but a specific point of attention.
ok dear beetle you need to speak as if to a child to help me grasp this idea, if something neither exists nor is non existence, what are we talking about? Is it a potentiality? like we were before we were conceived in the womb? our mothers and fathers having a potential to bring to birth a child, not yet conceived, but never the less, the properties for conception existed?
When Nagarjuna offers that the character of the phenomena is neither existent, nor non-existent, nor both existent and non-existent, nor neither, he applies the tetralemma in order to describe the inner nature of the ultimate reality -a reality that is the ground of being of all phenomena. He shows that the phenomena do not exist by themselves and they do not exist by any intrinsic character. He shows that they do not abide as their own entities and they do not exist as they appear, and thus he clarifies that they they lack of inherent, self-enclosed, autonomous, independent and eternally stable characteristics. This is the case with self amongst else.
When Nagarjuna says that all things exist, he conducts affirmation of being. When he says that all things do not exist he conducts affirmation of non-being and thus he proposes the negation of being. When he says all things both exist and do not exist he conducts both affirmation and negation. And when he says all things neither exist nor do not exist, he conducts neither affirmation nor negation. Therefore Nagarjuna argued neither production nor destruction, neither annihilation nor permanence, neither unity nor difference, neither coming nor going, and thus he dismissed any kind of metaphysical speculation about the so called "ultimate reality". For our convenience we Westerns do see Nagarjuna as a philosopher and we cross-check his analysis the same way we do regarding every philosophic system, however the Zen community acknowledge him as the 14th Patriarch and they accept that he wrote his stanzas out of great compassion in order to liberate all beings from ignorance. In fact Nagarjuna does not propose sunyata as a philosophic system and he declares that the Floating World and sunyata are intimately linked due to the fact that, if something is dependent on something else to manifest, it is "empty" and has no self-existence. And if something is empty, it depends on something else in order to come into being and it cannot manifest on its own. In other words, he said that everything is relative. So everything that is mutually dependent, said Nagarjuna, must have a uniqueness of its own -but such a thing does not exist. And at the same time he does not deny the existence of the Floating World, he just clarifies that conventional reality does not have an inherent essence or being.
All in all, this is just a method of shifting one's point of attention. Once one's point of attention is shifted and the conceptual awareness regarding this matter is established, the method is practically discarded because the practitioner applies it so instantly and easily, like inhaling-exhaling, that it is not considered a method anymore but a solid part of her/ his genuine understanding regarding the nature of self and of all phenomena at every level of conceptual awareness
😵
Originally posted by black beetlemmm, i understood about 30 percent of that dear beetle, maybe if i hang around enough i might pick up one or two other things which shall help to clarify these ideas, which seem so clear to your own mind.
It is not a potentiality but a specific point of attention.
When Nagarjuna offers that the character of the phenomena is neither existent, nor non-existent, nor both existent and non-existent, nor neither, he applies the tetralemma in order to describe the inner nature of the ultimate reality -a reality that is the ground of being of all phenomena. H garding the nature of self and of all phenomena at every level of conceptual awareness
😵
what i understand is this,
1.there is illusion, things do not appear as they exist
2. whether an entity has intrinsic qualities is neither here nor there, for everything is interdependent and relative
3.no ultimate reality
4. a person may adopt this method of looking at things as an aid to understanding different types of phenomena
is this the case or am i way off?
Originally posted by black beetleI think your wave function has collapsed. 😕🙂
The human mind is not the sole thing creating reality; each observer collapses the wavefunction according to its species and to its own perceptions, and thus it creates a different reality. I create reality differently than a cat, turtle, an ant, an oak tree and a horse
😵
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes;
mmm, i understood about 30 percent of that dear beetle, maybe if i hang around enough i might pick up one or two other things which shall help to clarify these ideas, which seem so clear to your own mind.
what i understand is this,
1.there is illusion, things do not appear as they exist
2. whether an entity has intrinsic qualities is neither ...[text shortened]... ngs as an aid to understanding different types of phenomena
is this the case or am i way off?
Yes;
Yes/ No;
Yes;
😵
Originally posted by black beetleI am truly interested in the correlation between the ancient mystics and the advent of quantum. Thnx beetle.
I do collapse the wavefunction. But when you think that "my wavefunction" has "collapsed" you are delusional😵
ps- do you know what materials they do quantum testing on?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe Whole has no boundaries,
mmm, i understood about 30 percent of that dear beetle, maybe if i hang around enough i might pick up one or two other things which shall help to clarify these ideas, which seem so clear to your own mind.
what i understand is this,
1.there is illusion, things do not appear as they exist
2. whether an entity has intrinsic qualities is neither ...[text shortened]... ngs as an aid to understanding different types of phenomena
is this the case or am i way off?
or else we could not call it “the Whole”.
There is no “place”
in which it can be said to “exist”,
and yet it cannot be said
to be not.*
Only the figures, never the ground,
are perceived.
Yet, without the ground
neither are phenomena perceived.
Thus we speak of figure and ground,
the seen and unseen.
Figure and ground are not two,
as gulfstream and ocean are not two.
All are mutually arising
in and from and of the unseen ground.
Call it the dance of Shiva
in which there is no “part” of Shiva
uninvolved in the dancing.
_______________________________________________________
* Hence Beetle’s “yes/no” to your point (3). And Beetle-roshi has explained "emptiness" very well.
Hope you are well, Robbie!
Originally posted by karoly aczelThere are many fields related to quantum testing. For example, you may start checking http://www.evidenttech.com/quantum-dots-explained/how-quantum-dots-work.html
I am truly interested in the correlation between the ancient mystics and the advent of quantum. Thnx beetle.
ps- do you know what materials they do quantum testing on?
Methinks the so called correlation is a product of ours and of our nowdays understanding, for the ancients were ignoring the quantum world per se as we are conceiving it right now. However I 'm sure they developed a direct understanding of the essense of the self and of the Floating World by means of decoding their non-conceptual awareness and at the same time by means of establishing specific systems of analytical philosophy based on the state of the art products of the brightest evaluation of the mind of their era
😵
Originaly posted by Black Beetle
"Wavefunction" in the quantum physics is the mathematical description of potential existence, and it attributes the fundamental description of unobserved reality. The wavefunction collapses when a specific possibility within this realm of potentiality assigns a probability that is coming into existence when the system in question is measured/ observed.
Therefore the role of consiousness in the process of reality is tremendous; methinks mind creates the Floating World -the objective world that surrounds us- out of its own perception
I know that I collapse the wavefunction mainly as the other human beings due to our main products that we are using constantly, which are science and philosophy. And at the same time I know I collapse the wavefunction differently than you because I am a product of the science of our era and a product of specific products of specific systems of philosophy: my philosophy is different than yours and still our cars and our technology work just fine;
During deep meditation I minimize my conceptual awareness to the hilt, and so the subtle mind within me elevates above dualism -All return to One. This kind of subtle mind observes no thing because there is no thing to be observed, for the cause-effect bond is under these circumstances extremely weakened. This is called "non-conceptual awareness". But once I encouter distraction and I unleash my mind and my rest five senses in order to attain perception, non-conceptual awareness becomes subtle in favour of my energetic common conceptual awareness -One returns to All.
So I see no difference between Life and Death -to me, they are just two waves. The waves pass, the ocean remains -and I am in oneness with the totally calm ocean instead of "being" "right now" the wave "life" and "then" the wave "death".
Regarding your car (and every object of the Floaring World), I say your car is real but empty
"Wavefunction" is identical to the Buddhist "emptiness" (shunyata/ sunyata) and vice-versa
Buddha said amongst else that the self after death neither exists, nor does not exist, nor both, nor neither. This thought describes in full amongst else the essense of the reality of the Floating World too, it became the core essense of Nagarjuna's philosophy and it is known as tetralemma: the Indian wanted to prove the sutras right, and according to the sutras the manifestation of the solidity of the self and of the Floating World alike is illusionary because reality is hovering between neither existence or non-existence nor both nor neither. Every practicioner of the 6 Buddhist schools knows that the phenomena that arise in the Floating World are neither existent nor nonexistent, nor both, nor neither. Nagarjuna, along with the Yogacara, Dzogchen and Zen practicioners, shows how exactly these phenomena don't exist as they appear and defines precisely the dynamic condition known as emptiness (shunyata/ sunyata).
Nagarjuna's analytical philosophy is extremely solid and works fine, but to many it remained incomprehensible because only a few could really understand that "all is real and not real, both real and not real, neither real nor not real". We had to wait until the quantum physics era in order to back up this theory scientifically. Shroendiger's wavefunction is not merely a mathematical device that is used solely in order to predict the probabilities of locating particles in certain places. In fact the wavefunction is empty since it is a mathematical formulism, and at the same time it entails physical effectiveness. And this is the case regarding sunyata too.
It is not a potentiality but a specific point of attention.
When Nagarjuna offers that the character of the phenomena is neither existent, nor non-existent, nor both existent and non-existent, nor neither, he applies the tetralemma in order to describe the inner nature of the ultimate reality -a reality that is the ground of being of all phenomena. He shows that the phenomena do not exist by themselves and they do not exist by any intrinsic character. He shows that they do not abide as their own entities and they do not exist as they appear, and thus he clarifies that they they lack of inherent, self-enclosed, autonomous, independent and eternally stable characteristics. This is the case with self amongst else.
When Nagarjuna says that all things exist, he conducts affirmation of being. When he says that all things do not exist he conducts affirmation of non-being and thus he proposes the negation of being. When he says all things both exist and do not exist he conducts both affirmation and negation. And when he says all things neither exist nor do not exist, he conducts neither affirmation nor negation. Therefore Nagarjuna argued neither production nor destruction, neither annihilation nor permanence, neither unity nor difference, neither coming nor going, and thus he dismissed any kind of metaphysical speculation about the so called "ultimate reality". For our convenience we Westerns do see Nagarjuna as a philosopher and we cross-check his analysis the same way we do regarding every philosophic system, however the Zen community acknowledge him as the 14th Patriarch and they accept that he wrote his stanzas out of great compassion in order to liberate all beings from ignorance. In fact Nagarjuna does not propose sunyata as a philosophic system and he declares that the Floating World and sunyata are intimately linked due to the fact that, if something is dependent on something else to manifest, it is "empty" and has no self-existence. And if something is empty, it depends on something else in order to come into being and it cannot manifest on its own. In other words, he said that everything is relative. So everything that is mutually dependent, said Nagarjuna, must have a uniqueness of its own -but such a thing does not exist. And at the same time he does not deny the existence of the Floating World, he just clarifies that conventional reality does not have an inherent essence or being.
All in all, this is just a method of shifting one's point of attention. Once one's point of attention is shifted and the conceptual awareness regarding this matter is established, the method is practically discarded because the practitioner applies it so instantly and easily, like inhaling-exhaling, that it is not considered a method anymore but a solid part of her/ his genuine understanding regarding the nature of self and of all phenomena at every level of conceptual awareness
When Nagarjuna offers that the character of the phenomena is neither existent, nor non-existent, nor both existent and non-existent, nor neither, he applies the tetralemma in order to describe the inner nature of the ultimate reality -a reality that is the ground of being of all phenomena. H garding the nature of self and of all phenomena at every level of conceptual awarenes
The human mind is not the sole thing creating reality; each observer collapses the wavefunction according to its species and to its own perceptions, and thus it creates a different reality. I create reality differently than a cat, turtle, an ant, an oak tree and a horse
I do collapse the wavefunction. But when you think that "my wavefunction" has "collapsed" you are delusional
Methinks the so called correlation is a product of ours and of our nowdays understanding, for the ancients were ignoring the quantum world per se as we are conceiving it right now. However I 'm sure they developed a direct understanding of the essense of the self and of the Floating World by means of decoding their non-conceptual awareness and at the same time by means of establishing specific systems of analytical philosophy based on the state of the art products of the brightest evaluation of the mind of their era
You need Jesus.
Originally posted by josephwApparently not...
Originaly posted by Black Beetle
[b]"Wavefunction" in the quantum physics is the mathematical description of potential existence, and it attributes the fundamental description of unobserved reality. The wavefunction collapses when a specific possibility within this realm of potentiality assigns a probability that is coming into existence when the system i ...[text shortened]... evaluation of the mind of their era
You need Jesus.[/b]
(If you have any input of why following Jesus should be considered intelligent, please put up a post on that "Intelligence" thread. Cheers buddy, I would appreciate that....I also will have some special questions just for you😉 )
Originally posted by josephwI know you are a good Christian, josephw
Originaly posted by Black Beetle
[b]"Wavefunction" in the quantum physics is the mathematical description of potential existence, and it attributes the fundamental description of unobserved reality. The wavefunction collapses when a specific possibility within this realm of potentiality assigns a probability that is coming into existence when the system i ...[text shortened]... evaluation of the mind of their era
You need Jesus.[/b]
😵
Originally posted by vistesdhey my friend, i like this poetic approach, its is both profound and it appeals to our imagination, giving us the opportunity to try to grasp these things with our own minds. It seems to me that this mode of spirituality (i cannot think of a better description and apologise as to its vagueness), as you and beetle as well as others profess needs study, for there are many terms and concepts at once not immediately comprehensible unless some foundation has been laid. Although i myself am a miserable and uncompromising theist i have a kind of duty, an obligation if you like, to understand all 'modes of thought' and i thank you and beetle for your time and effort in expounding its principles and ideas thus far. i hope that you do not mind my calls for simplification and illustration, for we are used to this type of teaching, being christians and having profound ideas illustrated to us in simple and unambiguous terms - i really thank you for your salutations and wish you well - kind regards Robbie.
The Whole has no boundaries,
or else we could not call it “the Whole”.
There is no “place”
in which it can be said to “exist”,
and yet it cannot be said
to be not.*
Only the figures, never the ground,
are perceived.
Yet, without the ground
neither are phenomena perceived.
Thus we speak of figure and ground,
the seen and unseen.
Figure and g ...[text shortened]... oint (3). And Beetle-roshi has explained "emptiness" very well.
Hope you are well, Robbie!
Originally posted by karoly aczelWe can do that right here. But first why don't you tell me why you think following Jesus is unintelligent.
Apparently not...
(If you have any input of why following Jesus should be considered intelligent, please put up a post on that "Intelligence" thread. Cheers buddy, I would appreciate that....I also will have some special questions just for you😉 )