"Free will" is a BS argument

Originally posted by JS357
The entire basis of morality and justice depends on the concept of free will. How can free will be a bs argument?

Since when??

Given that libertarian free will is logically incoherent and the evidence we have
suggests that any kind of free will is illusory at best, are you saying that there
is thus no basis for morality or justice??

I would have to disagree.

Originally posted by C Hess
That is my point.

Okay, when I see one doing that I'll think of you. 🙂

Originally posted by C Hess
...an existing god of compassion and mercy would strike me down right there and then.

God is not one of your choosing. You err in thinking you can know the mind of God as well as you can know my mind. 😏

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

(2 Peter 3:8-10 KJV)

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by googlefudge
Since when??

Given that libertarian free will is logically incoherent and the evidence we have
suggests that any kind of free will is illusory at best, are you saying that there
is thus no basis for morality or justice??

I would have to disagree.

JS357's is an interesting point. If there is no free will then what is the moral justification in punishing people for something they had no choice but to do? Of course, from the judicial system's point of view, since judges also have no free will they have no choice but to imprison them, they can't do anything else. But from a divine point of view there is a clear problem.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay, when I see one doing that I'll think of you. 🙂

I think you might have misunderstood me. I take full blame for that. You (christians) defend your god with this free will argument. But if your god actually existed, and if he was indeed the loving, merciful and compassionate kind, surely he could easily prevent the innocent and the undecided from suffering? In light of that the free will argument is as contrived as it is logically incoherent.

Originally posted by C Hess
I think you might have misunderstood me. I take full blame for that. You (christians) defend your god with this free will argument. But if your god actually existed, and if he was indeed the loving, merciful and compassionate kind, surely he could easily prevent the innocent and the undecided from suffering? In light of that the free will argument is as contrived as it is logically incoherent.

I grant to you that God could prevent all the bad things we go through, most
of which we do to ourselves. I ask you would you then just kill us all off if
there were a way to save some? He is going to stop evil that has been a
promise from a long time ago, and after that it is gone, not beaten back for
another day but gone.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
where do you draw the line?

is it at children getting cancer? children getting measles? children getting a mild cough?

how about poverty? how about hunger? must god fix those too?

someone stealing from me is harming me. must he fix that too? won't the thief be harmed in the process?

it's easy to ask someone else to magically solve your problems.

If you put forward the notion of an omnipotent god that really doesn't give a chit whatsoever about the things it has supposedly created then you have a point. Start arguing that this God character is good, loving, moral point of origin, and what-not ... then in order to satisfy those qualities we must insist that he does fix these wrongs.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I grant to you that God could prevent all the bad things we go through, most
of which we do to ourselves. I ask you would you then just kill us all off if
there were a way to save some? He is going to stop evil that has been a
promise from a long time ago, and after that it is gone, not beaten back for
another day but gone.

Did those 100 million victims of pogroms in Russia and China do that to themselves? It looks to me quite clear your alleged god, if it exists at all, willfully neglected to even take notice of all those deaths.

How can a supposedly all compassionate deity allow those totally unprovoked murders to take place?

The ones doing the killing were in the vast minority so would you be saying, well there will be a reckoning. So the few thousand actual killers are held responsible but the 100 million get no justice?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Did those 100 million victims of pogroms in Russia and China do that to themselves? It looks to me quite clear your alleged god, if it exists at all, willfully neglected to even take notice of all those deaths.

How can a supposedly all compassionate deity allow those totally unprovoked murders to take place?

The ones doing the killing were in the va ...[text shortened]... ing. So the few thousand actual killers are held responsible but the 100 million get no justice?

Maybe you should be asking yourself why a supposedly all compassionate deity would allow His only begotten Son to be humiliated, scourged, and crucified to death when His Son had not sinned.

Have you ever heard a Christian minister or priest preach about God's plan to eliminate sin and death?

You should start contemplating how puny your thoughts are compared to the creator of the universe and all life on earth. What makes you think you know better than the LORD of Lords, and the KING of kings? 😏

I believe the true answer to that last question concerns your pride and arrogance.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Err, no. An existing god of compassion and mercy would not let you do it in the first place, or even make you in such a way that you would want to do it.

Yeah, free will be damned, eh?

So you're saying that compassion and mercy would prevent anyone from having free will.

Wow, and you say religion is controlling.

Originally posted by Agerg
If you put forward the notion of an omnipotent god that really doesn't give a chit whatsoever about the things it has supposedly created then you have a point. Start arguing that this God character is good, loving, moral point of origin, and what-not ... then in order to satisfy those qualities we must insist that he does fix these wrongs.

Would removing your free will to do these things actually "fix" the problem?

Or would it be merely a band-aid?


No, it's on us, individually, not to do these things. Free will thus removes responsibility for good behavior away from God and onto us. As it should be.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Would removing your free will to do these things actually "fix" the problem?

Or would it be merely a band-aid?


No, it's on us, individually, not to do these things. Free will thus removes responsibility for good behavior away from God and onto us. As it should be.

An employer tells his employee that he is free to leave his job, there are no other jobs. Is this freedom (being a democrat I thought you might emphasize) ? Don't you think your god is playing a similar game ? I say this because the bible tells us that god has intervened on many occasions. It amounts to saying that if you exercise you "free will" in a way that doesn't suit me you are for it.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yeah, free will be damned, eh?

So you're saying that compassion and mercy would prevent anyone from having free will.

Wow, and you say religion is controlling.

So if you saw a man breaking into the house of a woman who lives alone, would you not call the police lest the attacker's free will be tampered with?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Did those 100 million victims of pogroms in Russia and China do that to themselves? It looks to me quite clear your alleged god, if it exists at all, willfully neglected to even take notice of all those deaths.

How can a supposedly all compassionate deity allow those totally unprovoked murders to take place?

The ones doing the killing were in the va ...[text shortened]... ing. So the few thousand actual killers are held responsible but the 100 million get no justice?

Not sure why you are crying over all of that? Something about death seem
like a bad thing to you? Isn't it just a part of life in the way you view things?

God's reckoning will be on God's timing not yours, if He chooses to settle up
while giving everyone a chance to be saved, what is that to you?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Something about death seem like a bad thing to you?

Yes, to an atheist death is the absolute end of an individual, so it's very, very bad indeed.