Originally posted by AgergSo do you see everything as making sense with no mysteries? Everything is governed by physical phenomenon (whatever that may be) that can be quantified most conveniently, in the language of mathematics that humans have created, just like we created all other languages. Do you see any purpose in stardust forming itself into life that lead to the formation of us humans? Are we here on this one tiny planet for no reason? Why should we of all creatures be able to use reason and logic to question our existence?
Because things, and their relations to/effects upon/responses to/ ... / other things tend to be governed by physical phenomenon that can be quantified most conveniently, in the language of mathematics.
16 Aug 12
Originally posted by jaywillThis seems rather mean-spirited of you Jaywill. Do you really think duration of membership is relevant? And you're basing this prediction of yours on what now? I've just looked at his entire posting history (didn't take long, try it yourself) and while there may be an occasional flavour of sarcasm I don't see a single 'troll' post among them. Are we therefore to assume that you know the guy from another site, or is this post of yours a rather ill-considered reaction to an argument you're struggling to handle?
Phil Hill the newbie seems like a Troll making a go at being a serious discusser at the Spirituality Forum. I think it is only a short matter of time that he will slink back into pure troll mode - chit chatty wise cracks.
16 Aug 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritHow do you get that conclusion? Why must everything have a cause?
if however quantum physics is contained fully within the universe, then it must be subject to some laws/variables that we have not fully comprehended as of yet and any randomness is only apparent.
You appear to have started with the premise that everything is deterministic and are then using a circular argument to conclude that everything is deterministic.
if the molecule follows some law of physics, then it would not be random.
Again, quantum physics (a law of physic surely) does not require non-random behaviour.
16 Aug 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritI know that, but we still consider them random in relation to us. If your decisions were based on the roll of a die you would refer to them as random. If there is a cause, it is not one that originates in logical circuitry in our brains (or souls).
it should be noted that there is nothing random about a roll of a die or toss of a coin.
16 Aug 12
I have noticed in discussion of free will in the past that most people are uncomfortable about the obvious conclusions that must be drawn when it comes to decision making. Some people use the age old technique that most religions use for just about everything of giving a non-answer then parading it as if it is an answer.
So some people will say 'the brain doesn't make decisions, it is the soul'. Not because that solves anything, but it appears to solve the problem.
Originally posted by RJHindsI don't believe that everything makes sense (yet) with no mysteries. However, to that end we have some crack teams of theologi...ahem...sorry about that! I was about to say theologists!! (which would be stupid - they don't come up with anything!) I'll try again: some crack teams of scientists/mathematicians working on it!
So do you see everything as making sense with no mysteries? Everything is governed by physical phenomenon (whatever that may be) that can be quantified most conveniently, in the language of mathematics that humans have created, just like we created all other languages. Do you see any purpose in stardust forming itself into life that lead to the formation o ...[text shortened]... ason? Why should we of all creatures be able to use reason and logic to question our existence?
Must there be an (objective) purpose to life!??
What is the (objective) purpose of skeletons?
What is the (objective) purpose of copper?
What is the (objective) purpose of the planet Jupiter?
What is the (objective) purpose of "God"?
As for why we of all creatures must be able to use reason and logic to question our existence, the fact that we evolved the opposable thumb (and that we got it first) seems to have been the clincher - this allows us to fashion sophisticated tools, and
with the incremental incrfease in brain power that comes with collections of humans, and their offspring trying to \"succeed\" in a harsh world
communicate this knowledge to others. This then frees us up to make even bigger use of our brains as we try to tackle other problems that haven't already been solved (for example: how can we improve such and such a tool so that we can make them easier, or (in the case of weapons) make them more lethal) - this in turn grants us other priveliges (allowing us even more thinking time) - and so on ...16 Aug 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf it is the so-called soul that makes decisions (not the brain (alone)) then it is reasonable to infer that souls are affected by alcohol (it seems they are prone to making crappy decisions after the physical shell that houses them has had a drink), or that when someone suffers brain damage the also suffer soul damage, and so on...
I have noticed in discussion of free will in the past that most people are uncomfortable about the obvious conclusions that must be drawn when it comes to decision making. Some people use the age old technique that most religions use for just about everything of giving a non-answer then parading it as if it is an answer.
So some people will say 'the brai ...[text shortened]... ions, it is the soul'. Not because that solves anything, but it appears to solve the problem.
16 Aug 12
Originally posted by AgergYes, all the things that people are uncomfortable about when we think the brain makes decisions, do not go away simply because we try to remove the problem off to some 'soul' entity.
If it is the so-called soul that makes decisions (not the brain (alone)) then it is reasonable to infer that souls are affected by alcohol (it seems they are prone to making crappy decisions after the physical shell that houses them has had a drink), or that when someone suffers brain damage the also suffer soul damage, and so on...
16 Aug 12
Originally posted by avalanchethecatjaywill here on GSWILL's PC by permission.
This seems rather mean-spirited of you Jaywill. Do you really think duration of membership is relevant? And you're basing this prediction of yours on what now? I've just looked at his entire posting history (didn't take long, try it yourself) and while there may be an occasional flavour of sarcasm I don't see a single 'troll' post among them. Are we ...[text shortened]... ost of yours a rather ill-considered reaction to an argument you're struggling to handle?
Changing the login usually seems to cause some problems. My dad is over 90.
I can hardly beat him at chess though.
This seems rather mean-spirited of you Jaywill. Do you really think duration of membership is relevant?
Wasted words. I take that post back and apologize to Mr. Hill.
I'm sorry, Phil Hill, for ribbing you about Forum participation.
16 Aug 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadit's a law of physics. an object doesn't do anything unless an external force acts upon it.
How do you get that conclusion? Why must everything have a cause?
You appear to have started with the premise that everything is deterministic and are then using a circular argument to conclude that everything is deterministic.
no, my argument is, if the universe is a closed system then everything is deterministic.
Again, quantum physics (a law of physic surely) does not require non-random behaviour.
this makes no difference to my argument.
these are speculative conditions;
1. the universe is a complete closed system; all the laws of physics are in effect and there is no randomness; everything is predetermined based on the course of particles and their interactions with other forces around them.
2. the universe is subject to influences from outside:
a) these outside influences are also subject to physical laws
-- then we still have no randomness.
b) these outside influences are not subject to any physical laws
-- then we have the potential for randomness.
free will could only exist in situation 2b assuming the seat of thought is located in a null-space that is not subject to physical laws.
this would require some kind of mechanism for transmitting and receiving information to and from real-space, ergo it could still be influenced by real-space, but it would not be subject to it.
16 Aug 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThat's simply not true. As I said, you are trying to create a circular argument. You assume its a law then claim its a law based on the assumption. The current state of quantum physics suggest that it is not the case that things are deterministic. Of course there is no way to prove that quantum effects are not caused, but there is currently no known cause.
it's a law of physics. an object doesn't do anything unless an external force acts upon it.
16 Aug 12
Originally posted by AgergIt seems you are lumping involuntary bodily functions controlled by the brain with the free will we have through our mind. We have the free will to choose where to go if we do so in a reasonable period of time. Otherwise we may have a mess to clean up.
If it is the so-called soul that makes decisions (not the brain (alone)) then it is reasonable to infer that souls are affected by alcohol (it seems they are prone to making crappy decisions after the physical shell that houses them has had a drink), or that when someone suffers brain damage the also suffer soul damage, and so on...
16 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindsI made no allusion to bodily functions or anything else. My point is that the way we think is governed by things that are physical. Consequently, given the premise that thoughts eminate from the soul (synonimous with "mind" I'm assuming), and that the quality of these thoughts can be changed by physical things, then by transitivity the soul is itself affected by physical things (such as alcohol etc...)
It seems you are lumping involuntary bodily functions controlled by the brain with the free will we have through our mind. We have the free will to choose where to go if we do so in a reasonable period of time. Otherwise we may have a mess to clean up.
Originally posted by AgergI am sure you must know I was joking. However, there are things about our body that are controlled by the functioning of the brain that we do not have to think about and others that we have minor control by the will of our minds. What we Christians believe is there are other things that our mind has complete free will to command our body to do. However, that does not mean the body is able to do it in all cases. Our mind has the free will to drink beer or not to drink beer in the example you gave. The brain couldn't care less. 😏
I made no allusion to bodily functions or anything else. My point is that the way we think is governed by things that are physical. Consequently, given the premise that thoughts eminate from the soul (synonimous with "mind" I'm assuming), and that the quality of these thoughts can be changed by physical things, then by transitivity the soul is itself affected by physical things (such as alcohol etc...)
16 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindsRegardless of the mind's freewill to do anything, the tangential comment I made in response to one of twhitehead's posts (and you're now responding to me on it) is that the mind (or soul) would be affected by physical things. Not just the physical body gets affected by physical things, but the supposedly non-physical soul is also affected by them.
I am sure you must know I was joking. However, there are things about our body that are controlled by the functioning of the brain that we do not have to think about and others that we have minor control by the will of our minds. What we Christians believe is there are other things that our mind has complete free will to command our body to do. However, t ...[text shortened]... to drink beer or not to drink beer in the example you gave. The brain couldn't care less. 😏