Free will

@philokalia said
Why don't you believe in those things?

Because I don't find the evidence credible. I used to. But I don't now. When I did, I couldn't decide to find it not credible. And now, I can't decide to find it credible.

@philokalia said
Yet, you could have at any point decided to do something that would theoretically accelerate your disbelief, right?

I don't think I did.

@philokalia said
Are you suggesting that belief in God is so untenable that anyone who remains in it is actively maintaining some kind of self-brainwashing?

No, not "anyone". And I have never uttered a word to that effect on this forum in all my tears here. I did use the word "brainwashing" yesterday but not in the way you are using it in your question.

@philokalia said
Because it is clearly a choice -- and if it is not a choice, then surely there is some ultimate reality about how people believe things, and clearly there's going to be certain realities that are more conducitve to understanding the truth, and others tht aren't.

I don't believe the same things as you do. And I doubt that I share your belief in "certain realities that are more conducive to understanding the truth" in so far as this pertains to religion and faith.

@philokalia said
You surely believe in absolutes on this.

I don't believe in the supposed "absolutes" that are bandied about in the rhetoric we encounter in the realm of people sharing their speculation and aspirations about supernatural things.

@philokalia said
Or, you could have decided to invest yourself in a different path of logic that would reinforce your beliefs, right?

I just realized that I wasn't a Christian anymore because I no longer believed the things Christians claim about themselves and about Jesus. It was a gradual process. Even the realization was gradual.

@philokalia said
I think that is an example of ignorance. You are "uneducated, unaware, or uninformed" of how to think about these things objectively.

You saying this stuff ~ about me supposedly being ignorant, uneducated, unaware, uninformed, very shallow, sadly narrow etc. ~ is rooted in you not having read what I wrote carefully.

@philokalia said
Yet, you could have at any point decided to do something that would theoretically accelerate your disbelief, right?

Or, you could have decided to invest yourself in a different path of logic that would reinforce your beliefs, right?

you could have decided to invest yourself in a different path of logic that would reinforce your beliefs

I decided to keep praying and to keep meditating on the messages in the Bible and to talk things over with fellow Christians. They seemed like logical things to do.

@fmf said
I didn't "refuse to apply it to someone's belief in sexism or racism". Indeed, what I said, very explicitly, was this: "Yes, I am sure there all manner of beliefs about all kinds of things that many people cannot change their mind about even if they want to". You are mistaken.

Aw, I think you must have done that in the edit because I recollect you denying that that was the case in post 4006250
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/free-will.180319#post_4006250

Hence, why in post 4006251 you still have a flippant response that I must not understand this at all:
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/free-will.180319#post_4006251

But the response in 4006250 is still a bit odd:

I'd say that if an Islamic fundamentalist takes violent or murderous action then that is a decision they make using their "free will" [indoctrination, blackmail, mental health etc, notwithstanding], even if they feel some compulsion or imperative based on their religious beliefs.

But their underlying belief in the Abrahamic God ~ and all the faith invested in the supernatural beings and phenomena attendant thereto ~ would not be something they could switch on or switch off using "free will".

Why is an action free will but a belief in God is not free will?

But I see now, in post 4006272 you seem to support my assertion:

Complete lack of evidence for belief in supernatural beliefs, in my view. I think this sets it apart from other beliefs, although if you want to argue that there are non-religious beliefs that are impervious to "free will", I'm sure you're right. I'm sure there are some things that we believe so strongly that we cannot shed them even if we want to. Nevertheless, my OP is about "free will" versus belief in a god or gods and is in connection with 'spirituality' and is some personal testimony of sorts.

So maybe I did understand the OP?

@fmf said
Not at all. Have you not read what I wrote?

It's frustrating when people just jump to conclusions quickly about what you have stated and they do not necessarily follow what you wrote precisely, right?

That was happening to me earlier, I recollect.

I apologize if I made some mistake. ^^

Maybe we need to be more charitable to one another in our posts.

@fmf said
I don't believe the same things as you do. And I doubt that I share your belief in "certain realities that are more conducive to understanding the truth" in so far as this pertains to religion and faith.

So then why does one person believe in God, and another does not?

And isn't one state better than the other as one is more reflective of the reality on the ground than the other? For instance, surely you would agree that a witch doctor in Papua New Guinea and an astrophysicist have very different understanding of the stars...

And one is right, and the other is wrong.

Right?

@philokalia said
It's frustrating when people just jump to conclusions quickly about what you have stated and they do not necessarily follow what you wrote precisely, right?

That was happening to me earlier, I recollect.

I apologize if I made some mistake. ^^

Maybe we need to be more charitable to one another in our posts.

Post as you see fit. You are what you post. So am I.

@fmf said
I just realized that I wasn't a Christian anymore because I no longer believed the things Christians claim about themselves and about Jesus. It was a gradual process. Even the realization was gradual.

I don't understand why you would play down this event.

I don't really understand why you would suddenly shift to this nonchalant tone, like our thread needs that.

Of course, I am absolutely certain you are going to put your feet down and refuse to budge on the topic, and deny that there is any tone if I question you on it, etc. But...

It's certainly funny how one of these moments in your life you just characterize as well, I just no longer believed... as if there was not some realization that was deeper.

I've heard people describe losing their belief in Santa Claus with more color.

@fmf said
Post as you see fit. You are what you post. So am I.

That's where you're wrong:

You are your soul.

You aren't what you post on the internet.

@philokalia said
So then why does one person believe in God, and another does not?

Because we are all different.