08 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by AgergWell, to say that a God could not work through individuals to produce a written message to his creation in order to reach out to them I think is mere speculation. Having said that, many such as myself, believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Does it not seem odd that that book that you claim is full of contradictions and inconsistancies is followed today by three major religions as being the inspired word of God as well as a whole host of lesser religions such as JW's and Mormons etc?
Whodey....you do not question the way in which your god or religion is defined. It has been defined wholly by way of man (either through books written by them or their words). We scoff because the inconsistancies and contradictions are rife as hell...and as I said much earlier these religions were born at a time when science and social values were less advanced than they are today
Having said that there are a number of ways to approach this inspired word. Some take it literally as though it were spoken by God himself about actual events that occured as where others view it as a flawless message being interpreted via a flawed scribe of some kind so that flaws may occur in the text. Still others view the stories in the scriptures, such as Noah's ark, are not to be taken literally but rather figuratively. Despite this, however, people today continue to view the Bible as inspired with messages to be unearthed.
I think you know my position in that I tend to take the Bible at face value. What you see is what you get. To say that the stories are not based in reality would be to deny the fact that the Bible is the only religious text by which a scientific discipline has arisen, namely Biblical Archaelogy. I realize that we have talked before about such events as Noah's ark and how you viewed the possibility of such an event as ridiculous. However, I conceede that for it to have happened, it would have had to have taken a miracle/supernatural intervention of some kind....but then again, is'nt the whole idea behind having a God in the first place?
Although I view the Bible to contain a simplistic message it has an author who is all but simplistic. In fact, if God be God there is not a more complicated author in all the universe. I think this is where many fall off the train, so to speak. At times he seems contradictory, but could this not be due to our finite intellectual capacity and/or our ignorance surrounding matters in question?
08 Apr 07
Originally posted by whodeyThere is no Almighty, at least an Almighty Psychotic like you worship. My posts are only to show the extreme irrationality of your belief system, not to suggest that such a being as Super Duper Psycho God exists. I don't "judge" non-existent things.
So do you think anyone would die if an earthquake occured if man was not a fallen race and living in a fallen world? I do not think so.
I think the reason you find the "sin" problem so amusing is that you do not take it seriously. God is holy and sees the corrosive nature of sin as where you are a sinner and therefore do not see the true nature of sin an ...[text shortened]... e that sin. Scoff all you want, however, I would not want to be the one judging the Almighty.
09 Apr 07
2 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderBut if he does exist you are judging him based upon his inspired word. What if you find yourself before him some day and he asked you to give an account? What would you do or say? Would you use the words super duper to refer to him or even call him psychotic?
There is no Almighty, at least an Almighty Psychotic like you worship. My posts are only to show the extreme irrationality of your belief system, not to suggest that such a being as Super Duper Psycho God exists. I don't "judge" non-existent things.
09 Apr 07
Originally posted by whodeyIf there really was a god and it brought me before it, I would call it insane to its face if it has one. I would chide it like I would a truculant child for having one part of the human race kill another part in its name. I would chide it for putting men on a higher plane than women. I would chide it for not making sure our genetics was pure in the sense of three year olds gettting cancer and such. I would tell it in no uncertain terms it was a pisspoor imitation of a god.
But if he does exist you are judging him based upon his inspired word. What if you find yourself before him some day and he asked you to give an account? What would you do or say? Would you use the words super duper to refer to him or even call him psychotic?
09 Apr 07
Well I haven't read any of the previous postings but I just wanted my few seconds.
Free will is an age old question. It was once by the majority that there was either no free will or so little free will since God was manifesting everything and everything was just a manifestation of God, actions, people, thoughts, and so on....
However modern day there is a tendency to believe that these laws of physics, since they are so reliable, govern everything. Still very little free will. Is everything that happens just these particles being played out from the Big Bang, creationists exluded.
New studies have shown that there is some randomness to certain particles. So it is all just a probability. Still little free will.
One idea that I have heard is that "it is like we are in a bubble, we can do things that have effects in the bubble but outside, in the big picture, we have no power".
Who knows?
09 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyIn that extremely, extremely, extremely unlikely possibility, yes I would. But I wouldn't have to, would I? Super Duper Psychotic God would already know I thought he was a dick. And I wouldn't want to spend eternity grovelling before such madness.
But if he does exist you are judging him based upon his inspired word. What if you find yourself before him some day and he asked you to give an account? What would you do or say? Would you use the words super duper to refer to him or even call him psychotic?
09 Apr 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI don't think you fully understand my concern. My concern is that your example is incoherent in and of itself. Not that I'm surprised…incoherency of ideas has never seemed to be of much concern to you.
Let's not, on the following grounds. lemon
Whooah! you can't do that ! If you make a counter claim about Christian belief then you can't just take half of it out willy nilly!! That's the equivalent of starting a game of chess and then taking my queen off the board ad hoc. If you are arguing against Christian belief then you need to argue against a ...[text shortened]... ering is nonsense then you need to include the things that said belief implies (= afterlife)
Let's revisit your example, then. Basically, I just died in the tsunami and now --somehow, somewhere -- I am with God. And it's great: happiness and joy beyond anything I have ever experienced. So what? What does that have to do with the process by which God goes about "righting the wrongs and healing the wounds"? What does that have to do, say, with the scars – physical and psychological – of the survivors? And how is this example compatible with God's always acting in accordance with the greater good; his being maximally compassionate and loving? One would think if he were really compassionate toward our plight, he would have simply prevented the seaquake which in turn caused the tsunami which in turn caused all the death and destruction.
As usual, your notions don't have any discernable content to them. You just sort of state that God will make everything right in the end. I have no idea what that means, and I seriously doubt you do either.
09 Apr 07
Originally posted by no1marauderStop parrotting Richard Dawkins.
There is no Almighty, at least an Almighty Psychotic like you worship. My posts are only to show the extreme irrationality of your belief system, not to suggest that such a being as Super Duper Psycho God exists. I don't "judge" non-existent things.
09 Apr 07
Originally posted by pizzinteaInteresting
Well I haven't read any of the previous postings but I just wanted my few seconds.
Free will is an age old question. It was once by the majority that there was either no free will or so little free will since God was manifesting everything and everything was just a manifestation of God, actions, people, thoughts, and so on....
However modern day the ...[text shortened]... have effects in the bubble but outside, in the big picture, we have no power".
Who knows?
I tend to view it as this, my fate / Allahs's will will be for me to travel to Oxford St, so either way I will go to Oxford St soon or later, but my free will allows me to choose how to get to Oxford St.....so that could mean either by tube, car, bike or walking for example.
09 Apr 07
Originally posted by RSMA1234thanks pizzintea and rsma1234 for getting back to the original debate about free will.
Interesting
I tend to view it as this, my fate / Allahs's will will be for me to travel to Oxford St, so either way I will go to Oxford St soon or later, but my free will allows me to choose how to get to Oxford St.....so that could mean either by tube, car, bike or walking for example.
rsma1234: what you're saying makes more sense than what most people have said thus far. having used Allah, am i right in assuming you are muslim. i admit that as far as the consistency of thought goes, i appreciate islam's view of the omnipotence and omniscience of god.
question: if god is omniscient AND omnipotent, does he know the future?
there has been one on this post so far who tried to answer, but his logic was so confusing that i think god himself might have been confused by it. (no offense KM)
2: if god does know the future, can it change?
3: if it can change then does god really know?
4: if it can't change then are all things determined?
point: i'm just looking for consistency in the standard monotheistic idea of god. if there is a single, all powerful god, then i don't see how free will can possibly exist, at least not as we understand it. i am willing to concede that we SEEM to have free will in that we must wrestle with decisions, but in the end, what will be will be.
11 Apr 07
Originally posted by LemonJelloI do have an idea but I don't think you are open to it. What I can say is that free will is inherently likely to bring about some suffering in the end. I don't fully understand how the processes of he natural world fits into this though. The point I was making was that in your assessment of the suffering of humanity you conveniently excluded the afterlife which made your argument only half an argument.
I don't think you fully understand my concern. My concern is that your example is incoherent in and of itself. Not that I'm surprised…incoherency of ideas has never seemed to be of much concern to you.
Let's revisit your example, then. Basically, I just died in the tsunami and now --somehow, somewhere -- I am with God. And it's great: happiness and ...[text shortened]... right in the end. I have no idea what that means, and I seriously doubt you do either.
11 Apr 07
Originally posted by Big Macquestion: if god is omniscient AND omnipotent, does he know the future?
thanks pizzintea and rsma1234 for getting back to the original debate about free will.
rsma1234: what you're saying makes more sense than what most people have said thus far. having used Allah, am i right in assuming you are muslim. i admit that as far as the consistency of thought goes, i appreciate islam's view of the omnipotence and omniscience of god. ...[text shortened]... ave free will in that we must wrestle with decisions, but in the end, what will be will be.
there has been one on this post so far who tried to answer, but his logic was so confusing that i think god himself might have been confused by it. (no offense KM)
2: if god does know the future, can it change?
3: if it can change then does god really know?
4: if it can't change then are all things determined? BIG MAC
None taken. The problem is you keep placing God on our timeline. What you need to ask yourself is questions like this....If I know the outcome of the second world war is it possible that the second world war could have been any different from what it was? If I travelled back in time to 1901 I would know the future of WW2 and that future could not change BUT does this mean that the future of WW2 has always been predestined from the beginning of time or does it mean that I am able to take some information across time? How many ways are there of knowing the future ? (answer only one we know of) If time travel was possible and I could travel back to 1901 how would I be able to prove that free will doesn't exist?
You see Big Mac. The problem you have is that the arguments all seem illogical to you because a being outside of time seems illogical to you (and quite rightly) but with God this is exactly how you need to try and think. God is watching you right now make a free choice tomorrow. How does that make it predestined? Whatever you choose to do he will still watch you choose it. You are still free. He doesn't know what you WILL do , he knows what you HAVE done. The confusing bit is that he is not on our timeline and is not travelling through it like you think he is. If you are looking for it to make perfect sense then it won't. Just allow it to make some sense.
12 Apr 07
2 edits
Originally posted by Big MacThank you for your comments.
thanks pizzintea and rsma1234 for getting back to the original debate about free will.
rsma1234: what you're saying makes more sense than what most people have said thus far. having used Allah, am i right in assuming you are muslim. i admit that as far as the consistency of thought goes, i appreciate islam's view of the omnipotence and omniscience of god. ave free will in that we must wrestle with decisions, but in the end, what will be will be.
Yes I am Muslim. I'm not up to date with the current thinking on this but will try to answers in my limited knowledge.
question: if god is omniscient AND omnipotent, does he know the future?
Allah / God knows everything as this is pre-determined. Furture would suggest a single liner time line, Allah / God existings on all timeline as I understand it, so their is no concept of future / past as he is all seeing and all knowing.
For example the day of judgement will happen regardless of what we as humans may try to do. Allah / God knows this already as in where and when. We as humans do not.
2: if god does know the future, can it change?
Not sure, to second guess him would be foolish. But the way I think off it is that everything has been decided so why would he change something ? If he has made this choose, he has more knowledge and understanding that we as humans do.
3: if it can change then does god really know?
He knows everything. This come down to faith. Their are some things which we s humans can not understand or will only understand over time.
4: if it can't change then are all things determined?
Everything happens with the will of Allah / God, so yes you can say that. For example, very rarely do I come onto this type of thread, I normally read the debate or general threads. For some reason I decided the other day to read your thread. This you can argue was due to the will of Allah / God. So whilst I think in the short term I am in control and making may choices, this is already pre-defined that I will do this.
My personal view is that we have the illuison of free will in that we make chooses / actions, but everything has already be writtern down and pre-determined (fate) so I may think I have free will but everything is done with the will off Allah / God.
But at the end of the day when I die I will be judged on my actions, so in general I should always try to be the best / honest etc I can and thus this was always Allahs / God's will.
12 Apr 07
Originally posted by RSMA1234...everything has already be writtern down and pre-determined (fate) so I may think I have free will but everything is done with the will off Allah / God.
My personal view is that we have the illuison of free will in that we make chooses / actions, but everything has already be writtern down and pre-determined (fate) so I may think I have free will but everything is done with the will off Allah / God.
But at the end of the day when I die I will be judged on my actions, so in general I should always try to be the best / honest etc I can and thus this was always Allahs / God's will.
But at the end of the day when I die I will be judged on my actions...
Can you see the injustice implied by these two statements?
--- Penguin.
12 Apr 07
Originally posted by PenguinI think there is a congruency between the two concepts of fate and free will. For example, it is your fate and my fate to die physically. Nothing can be done about this. However, what we do in the mean time can be up to our free will. In fact, we can choose certain actions which may either slow or speed up this process.
...[b]everything has already be writtern down and pre-determined (fate) so I may think I have free will but everything is done with the will off Allah / God.
But at the end of the day when I die I will be judged on my actions...
Can you see the injustice implied by these two statements?
--- Penguin.[/b]