07 Apr 07
Originally posted by knightmeister
Yes , you are right , in the instances when this happens God is not omniscient.
So god can cease being omniscient, or his omni-power is running at half pace? Do you have either a scriptural reference, or an empistemic theory with which to back this up?
In one real sense he cannot predict what you will do tomorrow but in another real sense he is watching you in tomorrow right now.
Again, how do you know this and from what position is this type of knowing/not knowing brought forth?
He knows whether you are going to choose him or not and has known this from since you were born and probably before.
Then there's not such thing as free will.
How does he know ? Because you either do choose him or you don't . Either way he knows , NOT because it's determined or fated BUT because of what you did.
That just doesn't make sense.
What's so hard for us to grasp is that he can be in our past , future , and present simultaneously. Therefore , prediction and fate are not necessary to know the future because for him it's not the future , it's already happened.
So why are we on a linear time-line then? Did he just get funky with the nature of n-dimensional space and decide to create humans in his own image, but not in his own dimensional understanding? Do you make this stuff up, or has someone actually taught you this rubbish?
07 Apr 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterAnyone can be omniscient after the fact, which is all the god you're describing seems to be.
If you can be surprised, you aren't 3 O marauder
Yes , you are right , in the instances when this happens God is not omniscient. In one real sense he cannot predict what you will do tomorrow but in another real sense he is watching you in tomorrow right now. He knows whether you are going to choose him or not and has known this from since you were b ...[text shortened]... necessary to know the future because for him it's not the future , it's already happened.
What we mean by "omniscient" is that knowledge of one time can be applied to a prior time. If a god could, say, give us today a perfect weather forecast for next month, that would qualify. But if it can only know next month's weather by watching it next month (and can't communicate that knowledge to the past) then that's not omniscience, and there's nothing special about that type of knowledge.
07 Apr 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterWell, come on. If an omniscient God doesn't know everything, he isn't omniscient. So far, you have singularly failed to show proof of anything - even the existence of this "God" of yours.
I've been stopped , argh , devasting argument once again! I'm floored by your one liners.
07 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzAnd if America doesn't nuke us all and take over the world by force then it is not a superpower?
Well, come on. If an omniscient God doesn't know everything, he isn't omniscient. So far, you have singularly failed to show proof of anything - even the existence of this "God" of yours.
God is not omniscient in the sense that he chooses not to know everything and be open to surprises for a specific reason. So yes , if you want to say that God is not omniscient in this way then feel free. However , this is not the same as saying he CAN'T know everything which is what I think you are trying to say.
Omniscience is an attribute of God that he chooses to temporarily suspend from time to time. Just as being a superpower is an attribute of the USA that for specific reasons it chooses not to exercise all the time. But it would be fool who then went on to say that because of this the USA was not a superpower.
07 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterWe can empirically verify it is. We can visit, count the nukes (security clearance providing), we can get documents which tell us about their military spending and their technologies.
And if America doesn't nuke us all and take over the world by force then it is not a superpower?
Please, feel free to do the same thing for you "god" character.
[edit; oh, and America is a "superpower", not an "omnipower".]
07 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzBut this is a different argument and you know it - answer the point being made before moving on to something else you feel more comfortable with.
We can empirically verify it is. We can visit, count the nukes (security clearance providing), we can get documents which tell us about their military spending and their technologies.
Please, feel free to do the same thing for you "god" character.
[edit; oh, and America is a "superpower", not an "omnipower".]
07 Apr 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterRubbish.
And if America doesn't nuke us all and take over the world by force then it is not a superpower?
God is not omniscient in the sense that he chooses not to know everything and be open to surprises for a specific reason. So yes , if you want to say that God is not omniscient in this way then feel free. However , this is not the same as saying he CAN'T ...[text shortened]... ut it would be fool who then went on to say that because of this the USA was not a superpower.
He's either omnipotent or not.
If you have ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for your statement that God "temporarily suspends his omnipotence" (which would be pointless anyway, since he'd already know what he was temporarily suspending himself from knowing), then feel free to bring it.
07 Apr 07
Originally posted by GregMHe can do that. But he would not be predicting the weather , only telling you what actually happened
Anyone can be omniscient after the fact, which is all the god you're describing seems to be.
What we mean by "omniscient" is that knowledge of one time can be applied to a prior time. If a god could, say, give us today a perfect weather forecast for next month, that would qualify. But if it can only know next month's weather by watching it next month (and c ...[text shortened]... t) then that's not omniscience, and there's nothing special about that type of knowledge.
07 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterA "superpower", a power with huge but not infinite, is completely different from an "omnipower", which, by definition has all the power in the universe.
I ask again - is the USA not a superpower just because it chooses not to exercise said power. Answer the question!
[edit; oh, and (again, as usual) it's YOU switching goalposts. We WERE talking about omniscience.]
07 Apr 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzSo the USA is either a superpower or it isn't ...no grey areas in between eh?
Rubbish.
He's either omnipotent or not.
If you have ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for your statement that God "temporarily suspends his omnipotence" (which would be pointless anyway, since he'd already know what he was temporarily suspending himself from knowing), then feel free to bring it.
07 Apr 07
Originally posted by scottishinnz[edit; oh, and (again, as usual) it's YOU switching goalposts. We WERE talking about omniscience.][/b] SCOTTY
A "superpower", a power with huge but not infinite, is completely different from an "omnipower", which, by definition has all the power in the universe.
[edit; oh, and (again, as usual) it's YOU switching goalposts. We WERE talking about omniscience.]
The content may have changed but if you think about it the principle is exactly the same. If the USA chose not to spy on every part of the world even though it could would it then not be "omniscient" (with reference to the world) even though it still had the ability to be so?