Free Will?

Originally posted by knightmeister
[edit; oh, and (again, as usual) it's YOU switching goalposts. We WERE talking about omniscience.] SCOTTY

The content may have changed but if you think about it the principle is exactly the same. If the USA chose not to spy on every part of the world even though it could would it then not be "omniscient" (with reference to the world) even though it still had the ability to be so?[/b]

No.

It's not omniscient unless it knows everything.

Originally posted by knightmeister
And if America doesn't nuke us all and take over the world by force then it is not a superpower?

God is not omniscient in the sense that he chooses not to know everything and be open to surprises for a specific reason. So yes , if you want to say that God is not omniscient in this way then feel free. However , this is not the same as saying he CAN'T ...[text shortened]... ut it would be fool who then went on to say that because of this the USA was not a superpower.

Omniscience is an attribute of God that he chooses to temporarily suspend from time to time.

No Knightmeister, this is an attribute of your god such that you can weasel out of tricky arguments and evade charges made against you that your definition of god contradicts itself right left and centre.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
It is a superpower. But that doesn't make its powr infinite, as you would attribute to your God (you've still provided NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for his existance).

Good , you have had the balls to answer the question. Fair enough. I will grant you that the USA is not an omnipower now and as such the analogy is not complete. However , it does show how the USA can still self limit itself in it's power but still have the attribute of being a superpower. It's one thing to say God is not omni everything because he is NOT ABLE to be (which implies he does NOT have those attributes ) and another to say he is not omni everything because that's the way he has CHOSEN it to be. In this second sense God is self limiting in his omniscience but STILL has the attributes of omniscience.

To say he is not omniscient would be misleading in the same way to say the USA is not a superpower would be misleading. Because it ignores the possibility that a power can have those attributes but not exercise them.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Fair enough. I will grant you that the USA is not an omnipower now and as such the analogy is not complete.

No. The analogy doesn't make sense whatsoever.

An omnipotent, or omniscient being wouldn't be able to limit themselves, otherwise they wouldn't be omni-whatever. As I pointed out though - there'd be no point anyway, since they'd already know what was going to happen.

Indeed, omniscience rules out omnipotence, since an omniscient God can't change anything that they already know they are going to do, if they did, they'd destroy their own omni, whichever way you look at it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Good , you have had the balls to answer the question. Fair enough. I will grant you that the USA is not an omnipower now and as such the analogy is not complete. However , it does show how the USA can still self limit itself in it's power but still have the attribute of being a superpower. It's one thing to say God is not omni everything because he is t would be misleading in the same way to say the USA is not a superpower would be misleading.

Good , you have had the balls to answer the question. Fair enough. I will grant you that the USA is not an omnipower now and as such the analogy is not complete. However , it does show how the USA can still self limit itself in it's power but still have the attribute of being a superpower. No it doesn't!!!...USA does not *self limit* it's power!!! it's power is limited externally to itself (though it would seek to increase it's power by aggressively manipulating certain countries that sit upon oil reserves or those that threaten to comprimise it's power through the development of means dissuade it from being a boom-stick toting bully) It's one thing to say God is not omni everything because he is NOT ABLE to be (which implies he does NOT have those attributes ) and another to say he is not omni everything because that's the way he has CHOSEN it to be. In this second sense God is self limiting in his omniscience but STILL has the attributes of omniscience. utter BS!

To say he is not omniscient would be misleading in the same way to say the USA is not a superpower would be misleading. It would not be misleading in the same way because you so not realise your argument is flawed from it's very foundation

Originally posted by scottishinnz
No. The analogy doesn't make sense whatsoever.

An omnipotent, or omniscient being wouldn't be able to limit themselves, otherwise they wouldn't be omni-whatever. As I pointed out though - there'd be no point anyway, since they'd already know what was going to happen.

Indeed, omniscience rules out omnipotence, since an omniscient God can't ch ...[text shortened]... re going to do, if they did, they'd destroy their own omni, whichever way you look at it.

An omnipotent, or omniscient being wouldn't be able to limit themselves, otherwise they wouldn't be omni-whatever SCOTTY

Surely an omnipotent God WOULD be able to limit himself . Are you saying that he is not powerful enough to be able to make choices?

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]Good , you have had the balls to answer the question. Fair enough. I will grant you that the USA is not an omnipower now and as such the analogy is not complete. However , it does show how the USA can still self limit itself in it's power but still have the attribute of being a superpower. No it doesn't!!!...USA does not *self limit* it's power!!! i ...[text shortened]... ame way because you so not realise your argument is flawed from it's very foundation[/b]

No it doesn't!!!...USA does not *self limit* it's power!!! it's power is limited externally to itself (though it would seek to increase it's power by aggressively manipulating certain countries that sit upon oil reserves) AGERG

What nonsense!!! If it wanted to it could blow up the world twice over. The fact that it would be insane is beside the point , it COULD do it and that's all that matters for the purposes of this analogy. Do you deny it could if it really wanted to?

Originally posted by knightmeister
An omnipotent, or omniscient being wouldn't be able to limit themselves, otherwise they wouldn't be omni-whatever SCOTTY

Surely an omnipotent God WOULD be able to limit himself . Are you saying that he is not powerful enough to be able to make choices?

Surely if X is this and that he could make himself ¬X...yeah well done KM!

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]Good , you have had the balls to answer the question. Fair enough. I will grant you that the USA is not an omnipower now and as such the analogy is not complete. However , it does show how the USA can still self limit itself in it's power but still have the attribute of being a superpower. No it doesn't!!!...USA does not *self limit* it's power!!! i ...[text shortened]... me way because you so not realise your argument is flawed from it's very foundation[/b]

It would not be misleading in the same way because you so not realise your argument is flawed from it's very foundation AGERG

Say why then. Just don't make statements. Make an argument if you have one.

Originally posted by knightmeister
No it doesn't!!!...USA does not *self limit* it's power!!! it's power is limited externally to itself (though it would seek to increase it's power by aggressively manipulating certain countries that sit upon oil reserves) AGERG

What nonsense!!! If it wanted to it could blow up the world twice over. The fact that it would be insane is beside the po ...[text shortened]... that matters for the purposes of this analogy. Do you deny it could if it really wanted to?

What nonsense!!! If it wanted to it could blow up the world twice over. The fact that it would be insane is beside the point , it COULD do it and that's all that matters for the purposes of this analogy. Do you deny it could if it really wanted to?

you think not commiting an act that would totally eliminate your power is an act of limiting your power??? and is this really your notion of power?

Originally posted by knightmeister
It would not be misleading in the same way because you so not realise your argument is flawed from it's very foundation AGERG

Say why then. Just don't make statements. Make an argument if you have one.

Say why then. Just don't make statements. Make an argument if you have one.

I did before in this thread and you left it unresolved...in addition you keep making logical screw ups at every turn

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]Omniscience is an attribute of God that he chooses to temporarily suspend from time to time.

No Knightmeister, this is an attribute of your god such that you can weasel out of tricky arguments and evade charges made against you that your definition of god contradicts itself right left and centre.[/b]

The opposite is true . you and scotty try to make this into an all or nothing argument and deliberately ignore the subtle aspects of power and the exercising of power. If you want to dumb down the argument then fair enough but if you want theology for kindergartens....?

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]Say why then. Just don't make statements. Make an argument if you have one.

I did before in this thread and you left it unresolved...in addition you keep making logical screw ups at every turn[/b]

The time it took you to write this you could have re-cut and pasted it...why not? Who do you think I am mephisto the memory man?

Originally posted by knightmeister
The opposite is true . you and scotty try to make this into an all or nothing argument and deliberately ignore the subtle aspects of power and the exercising of power. If you want to dumb down the argument then fair enough but if you want theology for kindergartens....?

The opposite is true . you and scotty try to make this into an all or nothing argument and deliberately ignore the subtle aspects of power and the exercising of power. If you want to dumb down the argument then fair enough but if you want theology for kindergartens....?

No KM, it is you that propogates kindergarden theism...your position is flawed. your refutation of our counters is of the form X ^ ¬X a contradiction.

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]What nonsense!!! If it wanted to it could blow up the world twice over. The fact that it would be insane is beside the point , it COULD do it and that's all that matters for the purposes of this analogy. Do you deny it could if it really wanted to?

you think not commiting an act that would totally eliminate your power is an act of limiting your power??? and is this really your notion of power?[/b]

Yes . The USA chooses not to do this because if it does the whole game is over. In the same way if God exercises all his power the whole game here would be over too.

In any case , the USA could do many other things like invade Iran and South korea tomorrow. Why don't they ? Are they not a superpower?