Free Will?

Originally posted by whodey
I would like to tell you of a story about a boy who built a toy sail boat. He would often go to a local pond and sail the boat for hours and hours simply for pure enjoyment of it. He would often wrap his arms around the boat and say to the boat, "You are mine, all mine." However, one day his boat went to the other side of the pond and he lost sight of it. ...[text shortened]... doubly mine because I both made you and I purchased you back after you were taken from me."

Would this have happened had the boy in your story been omnipotent and omniscient?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why should your 3 O God get any kudos for "having the balls" to do the same thing EVERY human does?

Is everyone crucified? I missed that bit on the news...

I know one thing ...if he hadn't done what he had done you would be one of the first to say " What does your god know about suffering , all stuck up there in heaven , he should try coming down
to deal with suffering and death but he hasn't even tasted it himself. Hypocrite god!"

No though hundreds of thousands were.

Many die even worse deaths. Many have to watch their loved ones suffer and die.

You're an idiot to think that Jesus suffered any worse than anybody else. I doubt he suffered any worse than the Midianites who were slaughtered at the hands of believers of your Monster God - it was all part of their "personal experience" with him.

Your Monster God doesn't exist, so he can't be a hypocrite.

EDIT: What balls, anyway?

Matthew 26: 36-39

36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto his disciples, Sit ye here, while I go yonder and pray.

37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and sore troubled.

38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.

39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Jesus took it like a bitch.

Funny way for a 3 O to act, too.

Originally posted by Big Mac
ok. so the boy (leaving out all the decriptors) represents god.
1) is the other boy satan? the world? the "flesh?"

2) did the boy make all the boats on the pond?

3) were all the boats stolen?

4) did he buy back all the boats?

5) if not why did he love and buy back this one?

6) if he did buy all the boats back, does this mean that god has boug ...[text shortened]... k everybody?

7) if this is so, then all are redeemed, and therefore free will has no place.

The story was merely to point out that as believers we have been purchased with a price and that price is the cross. Please do not read any more into the story than this because this is all that I was attempting to convey. However, if you take into consideration that God made us I would say that, yes, we were wrongfully taken from him.

The concept of free will is somewhat complicated. Why do we have it? My answer is that God is a God of love and love demands free will. If you do not think so, then try and force someone to love you and see what results you get.

This brings us to faith. Why does God require faith to be his once again. Well faith has an element of free will in the mix. To have faith in God is merely to agree with what he is telling you and then to do it. God is not interested in violating your free will, hence, your faith is required.

You then get to people like Scotty who are all up in arms that an all powerfull and all knowing God could ever relinquish part of his power willfully in order for us to have free will in the first place. However, if he is truly a God of love how could he create without the ability of that creation to love him back and how could we love him back without the will to do so? If we had no free will we would merely do as he says. What interest do you think an all powerfull and loving God has in creating such simplistic creatures who are incapable of accepting/rejecting him?

Originally posted by whodey
The story was merely to point out that as believers we have been purchased with a price and that price is the cross. Please do not read any more into the story than this because this is all that I was attempting to convey. However, if you take into consideration that God made us I would say that, yes, we were wrongfully taken from him.

The concept of f ...[text shortened]... ving God has in creating such simplistic creatures who are incapable of accepting/rejecting him?

1) why does love demand free will?
1a) should i make a habit of evaluating god by the standard of the all powerful me? (then try and force someone to love you and see what results you get.WHODEY)

2) why does faith have an element of free will in the mix?
2a) "To have faith in God is merely to agree with what he is telling you and then to do it." WHODEY... i thought confession was agreeing with god. is faith not belief in something unseen and hoped for with actions?
2b) "God is not interested in violating your free will, hence, your faith is required." WHODEY... does the bible not expressly state that faith is gift from god?

3) did the boat seek after the boy to get bought back by the boy, or did the boy seek the boat. and, once the boat was found, did the boat call out to the boy, "BUY ME!!!" or did the boy of HIS own free will decide to buy the boat?

Originally posted by Big Mac
1) why does love demand free will?
1a) should i make a habit of evaluating god by the standard of the all powerful me? (then try and force someone to love you and see what results you get.WHODEY)

2) why does faith have an element of free will in the mix?
2a) "To have faith in God is merely to agree with what he is telling you and then to do it." ll out to the boy, "BUY ME!!!" or did the boy of HIS own free will decide to buy the boat?

Let me clarify one thing. You may love someone or an object that does not have free will, however, this does not mean it is a loving relationship. To share a loving relationship one must have free will in order to recipricate affection. Either you love something or someone or you do not. There is no forcing the issue. If somehow you were able to force another party to love you back it would not be them loving you, rather, it would only be you loving you back. In fact, when confronted with the notion that we are being coerced by the other party to love them back we become resentful and the natural reaction is to push them away. I guess a good example of this is an abusive husband who attempts to control his wife and make her love him back in the process. From our vantage point we can plainly see that this is not a loving relationship. One must be given their freedom first and foremost in order to be able to recipricate love back. Of coarse there is always the chance that the other party will not choose to recipricate such affection in return, however, this is the price to pay for free will and in the process be able to form loving relationships.

As far as faith goes, if I told you to jump in your car and go to the store and buy some milk would you do it? If you did decide to go to the store and buy me milk it would be a good indication of a few things. It would show that you cared about the fact that I felt that I needed some milk and that I wanted you to help me to buy the milk for whatever reason. In other words, it would show that you cared about me in some way. It would also show that you believe that it was necessary to buy milk for whatever reason even if it was merely to please me. You will find that every relationship has an element of faith in the mix and so it is with God. What he asks does not always seem far fetched, rather, it merely requires a willing heart. Christ once said that if you love me then do as I say much like a loving husband who wants to please his wife. To please her what she asks may be difficult, however, it will not be burdonsome because he cares for her and WANTS to please her.

Conversly, if I asked you to go to the store and you did not trust me to begin with or did not think me to be benevolent, you would probably be suspicious of my motives. You would probably think that I was asking you to do this because I simply wanted a free gallon of milk and was cheap or because I was lazy or because I had someone at the store waiting to harm you in some way. In such a relationship your will and my will would probably be at odds with each other. How then can we interact in harmony. I then have the option of either letting you go about your business as you will which is contrary to mine or attempting to coeerse you into doing what I ask. However, if God is all powerfull and all knowing, what could we possiblly give him that he could not conjure up on his own? The answer is your heart.

As far as faith being a gift from God you could say that everything you have and what you are is a gift from God.

Also as far as the boat goes, it has no power of its own other than to agree to be bought with a price.

Originally posted by whodey
Let me clarify one thing. You may love someone or an object that does not have free will, however, this does not mean it is a loving relationship. To share a loving relationship one must have free will in order to recipricate affection.

Does that mean we can't have a loving relationship with God? As God is said to be love, or be all-loving, he doesn't seem to have a choice in the matter.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Nah, its called Knightmeister not having a scooby-doo about time as a dimension of the universe.

Deliberate obfuscation on his part.

I never said time was not a dimension of the universe. I just said that dimensions do not exist substantially in the same way as rocks do or magnetism does. It is you that twists things.

The idea of time as a dimension of the universe fits very neatly with an entity outside the universe being able to see all points in time simultaneously.

Originally posted by Big Mac
i don't fully understand what you're saying. god is outside of time and yet he must wait till tomorrow to know what will happen... i thought that's what i had to do.

how could he send jesus on the off chance that he'd piss enough people off to kill him?
jesus is called god's plan for salvation, but how can a god who ingnorant of the future make any plans ...[text shortened]... y stuff just a guess that god was hoping would work out as long as the humans played along?

jesus is called god's plan for salvation, but how can a god who ingnorant of the future make any plans at all, especially one so important? Big Mac

The term "future" with reference to this universe only makes sense if you are moving along a fixed timeline , which God is not. Your future , past and present for him are all one big now. At this very moment as you are reading this he is aware of what you are doing but also he is also watching clean your teeth tomorrow as well and he is doing that right now . This doesn't mean that he looks "into " the future , it just means that it's all "now" to him. He doesn't have to "wait" , for him it's already happened. He doesn't predict what you WILL do , he knows what you HAVE done (if that makes sense)

I know this is incredible but what do you expect from an uncaused eternal deity who exists independent of the universe?

However , the surprised bit comes in with Jesus because in Jesus God has also entered into time and moves along a timeline. If you remember the story of the faith of the centurion , Jesus shows surprise at the centurion's faith . But how can God be surprised? , I thought. At that moment Jesus (also fully human) doesn't know what is around the corner , but his father does. This theme is repeated later as he approaches his death. In the form of the trinity God can be both surprised and omniscient simultaneously. We would not think it amazing for God to be able to be in two places at once , so why not both surprised/unsurprised at once?

Originally posted by whodey
I would like to tell you of a story about a boy who built a toy sail boat. He would often go to a local pond and sail the boat for hours and hours simply for pure enjoyment of it. He would often wrap his arms around the boat and say to the boat, "You are mine, all mine." However, one day his boat went to the other side of the pond and he lost sight of it. doubly mine because I both made you and I purchased you back after you were taken from me."

The boy was stupid then!

Stories like this work well for those that are open to religious garbage, but you can't seriously expect anyone but a person of similar mindset to be moved by this.

Back to Jesus etc...you're asking us to believe that the all powerful, all seing, all knowing god in his boundless wisdom and intellect decided that to save humans from their sins (committed in the past or future) he'd have some dude nailed to a freaking cross!!!...is that really the best he can do!? That God is fighting an age old battle with Satan (who not being an omnipotent God should fall just as easily as any other creature you say God created) why doesn't God stop being silly and just eliminate him once and for all??? That he commanded Noah to fit two of every animal into a little ark (dinosaurs and all!!) This cr*p has been peddled to the gullible for centuries and I'm surprised you all don't believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy!

Originally posted by knightmeister
He intervened alright , just not in the way you think or would expect. By entering into the suffering of man through Christ he redeems the world from suffering (not yet though) . In due course the tables will be turned and justice served. Your position does not take into account that in Christianity death is not the end. Where are those Jews now and wh Christian . No other religion has this , only in Christianity does God get his hands dirty.

He intervened alright , just not in the way you think or would expect. By entering into the suffering of man through Christ he redeems the world from suffering (not yet though). Nope...despite that poor sap getting treated like a pin-cushion 2000 years ago, suffering still exists KM!!! you made a mistake here In due course the tables will be turned and justice served. I'm sure that is a great comfort to those gargling their own blood as they await a death that is painfully slow at manifesting itself Your position does not take into account that in Christianity death is not the end. Your position does take into account that many people are not Christians (Jews certainly aren't) Where are those Jews now and where is Hitler is a question you do not ask. I don't need to ask, for unlike you I don't believe they're all prancing about in never-never land listening to harp music and stuff At the end of the world all wrongs will be righted and all wounds will be healed. Just how do you make *right* such a thing as genocide?...and heal wounds??? do spirits actually have, ahem....wounds? God has to decide where he intervenes and where he doesn't, unless you would prefer him to end the world now and put an end to all suffering? This implies that your god can't think of many solutions to the problems of the universe that he created and knows intimately... Therefore he must be thick! Maybe you would like him to take away all human free will , that way he could guarantee no deaths at the hands of other humans? But would that not mean the end of love? How can a robot love?eh??? zero free will does not not imply no deaths at the hands of humans? your god has already shown himself to be a wally and so this conclusion is certainly not justified!...not the end of love??? what are you talking about here? 😕

Now this is a very unpalatable argument and I would understand if you found it offensive. I find many theistic arguments unpalatable and intellectually offensive I am not belittling human suffering but simply saying that if God did not have the balls to enter into death and suffering in person then none of what I am saying could be taken seriously. Little of what you say can be taken seriously at present...dude dying on cross =/= countless millions of people suffering heinous deaths and tortures at the hands of wicked humans But he did. There are no easy answers. That's because the Bible is a quagmire of s**t, coherent explanations will always be difficult under such circumstances St Paul points out that whatever suffering we go through in this life is nothing compared to the joys of the next. I realise that's easy for me to say and I would be lying if I said that I didn't struggle with it I doubt you are struggling to come to terms with it...just struggling to expel such difficulties from your train of thought but what is significant for me is that the central symbol God chose for us to focus on was God himself on a cross suffering in agony and shame at the hands of other human beings. As I said...your god is thick! I could think of much better things to worship It's one of the big reasons I could only ever be a Christian . No other religion has this , only in Christianity does God get his hands dirty. Your religion is a fairy tale written many centuries ago for people that are nowhere near as advanced both in science and social values

Originally posted by Agerg
The boy was stupid then!

Stories like this work well for those that are open to religious garbage, but you can't seriously expect anyone but a person of similar mindset to be moved by this.

Back to Jesus etc...you're asking us to believe that the all powerful, all seing, all knowing god in his boundless wisdom and intellect decided that to save humans fr e for centuries and I'm surprised you all don't believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy!

Indeed, why did God not elimate Satan once and for all? After all, his fate is sealed and all he is doing is bidding his time by making our lives as miserable as possible.

I have often wondered this as well. The Bible, however, does not give much to go as far as I can see, but speculatiing is free, no? What I do know though is that God is a God of his word. For example, what if before the fall Lucifer was promised an X amount of time to roam the earth? Does the fall negate the promises made to him in this regard?

Another theory of mine is that God has simply incorporated the fall of Lucifer into his ultimate goal for his creation. In effect, God's creation is tested "by fire" as it where, in order to help differentiate the wheat from the potential tares, so to speak, or perhaps much like a diamand is formed deep beneath the earths surface to produce blazing gems of glory. Who knows?

As far as God giving us his Son to die on the cross, yes, that was the best he could do. He gave us his best.

Originally posted by whodey
Indeed, why did God not elimate Satan once and for all? After all, his fate is sealed and all he is doing is bidding his time by making our lives as miserable as possible.

I have often wondered this as well. The Bible, however, does not give much to go as far as I can see, but speculatiing is free, no? What I do know though is that God is a God of his w ...[text shortened]... ing us his Son to die on the cross, yes, that was the best he could do. He gave us his best.

As far as God giving us his Son to die on the cross, yes, that was the best he could do. He gave us his best.

I see...If I was omnipotent and omniscient I'd probably be able to think of a better idea!!!...I'm afraid I simply can not take your imbecile of a deity seriously

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]As far as God giving us his Son to die on the cross, yes, that was the best he could do. He gave us his best.

I see...If I was omnipotent and omniscient I'd probably be able to think of a better idea!!!...I'm afraid I simply can not take your imbecile of a deity seriously[/b]

Well if our God is the best of the best then he gave us his best. If, however, God is not the best to offer us then he would not be God. It is the only religion that I know of where God physically reaches out to his creation verses sitting there waiting for us to do something for him. It is also the only religion that I know of that is not focused on work related ways to earn your way to heaven or to God, rather, it is simply a faith based loving relationship he is looking for. In both the Old and New Testaments, faith in God's word can be equated with righteousness.

BTW the whole sacrificial/blood thing is not new. It was practiced in the Old Testament with animals. Christ is said to be our sacrificial Lamb which s simply a continuation or perfection of this theme.

Originally posted by knightmeister
jesus is called god's plan for salvation, but how can a god who ingnorant of the future make any plans at all, especially one so important? Big Mac

The term "future" with reference to this universe only makes sense if you are moving along a fixed timeline , which God is not. Your future , past and present for him are all one big now. At this very mo ...[text shortened]... ble to be in two places at once , so why not both surprised/unsurprised at once?

"one of you will betray me." JESUS IN G. OF JOHN

how could he know this?
even more...
how could he know it would specifically judas?

and to get back to the free will point of the thread... did judas have a choice? could judas have screwed up the whole salvation thing for all of us?

Originally posted by whodey
Well if our God is the best of the best then he gave us his best. If, however, God is not the best to offer us then he would not be God. It is the only religion that I know of where God physically reaches out to his creation verses sitting there waiting for us to do something for him. It is also the only religion that I know of that is not focused on work ...[text shortened]... t is said to be our sacrificial Lamb which s simply a continuation or perfection of this theme.

i appreciate what you're saying about god being the best, and so the best he could give would be himself. logically, that makes sense to me. many may not agree that god is the best thing ever, but if he is, then to give the best thing ever would have to be giving god himself. ok.

"It is also the only religion that I know of that is not focused on work related ways to earn your way to heaven or to God" WHODEY

could work be equated with actions?
if so, wouldn't choosing god be an action?
also, wouldn't accepting salvation be an action?

also, how do you deal with the "author and perfector of our faith" passage?