14 Jun 09
Jesus said, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
Free from what?
Free from slavery.
Slavery to what?
Slavery to this world, i.e. adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, etc., etc., etc.
14 Jun 09
You may have hit upon the answer to your question. "Slavery to this world". I am not a christian, but most here are slaves to the illusion of this world, its apparent permanent reality, its attachments, ego, karma, wealth, and myriad other blinders to the real truth of (my) interpretations of jesus' teachings------detachment, love, and compassion. That is freedom from this place here in which we temporarly find ourselves.
14 Jun 09
4 edits
Originally posted by josephwIf that's a long-winded way of saying "free from committing sin", then I'd say that I agree. However, there seems to be more than a few Christians who don't believe Jesus here. Imagine if all Christians actually continued in the word of Jesus and became true disciples. They would know the truth, no longer commit sin and the world would be a much better place 🙂 So many Christians and yet so few true disciples of Jesus. 🙁
Jesus said, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
Free from what?
Free from slavery.
Slavery to what?
Slavery to this world, i.e. adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, etc., etc., etc.
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
17 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwActually Jesus says that it is knowing the Truth that will make you free. He makes no claim here that He is the only source of that truth.
Then we agree to what enslaves us, (generally speaking) and slavery to those things is what prevents us from being free.
Only Jesus can set you free.
With Jesus explicitly stating that knowing the truth will make you free from committing sin, why is it that so many Christians believe it impossible? Where do you think those branches of Christianity went wrong?
17 Jun 09
Originally posted by josephwI do not see what is wrong with drunkeness and fornication.
adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, etc., etc., etc.
17 Jun 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneJesus said, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
Actually Jesus says that it is knowing the Truth that will make you free. He makes no claim here that He is the only source of that truth.
With Jesus explicitly stating that knowing the truth will make you free from committing sin, why is it that so many Christians believe it impossible? Where do you think those branches of Christianity went wrong?
Look, ToO, don't be offended, but your reply to Jesus' own words is demented.
You're bringing up an old argument, and my answer is the same as it was before. Show me someone who never sins.
17 Jun 09
Originally posted by Rajk999Regardless of that, I don't see what is wrong with fornication and drunkenness. Forbidding these things is clearly a case of cultural norms from centuries ago being absorbed into a religious code. It is surely preposterous to suggest that whatever is responsible for the existence of nature and humanity is the slightest bit concerned about such things.
Whoa ... I guess we better tell God that FMF disagrees.
17 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwJesus also said, ""If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Jesus said, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
Look, ToO, don't be offended, but your reply to Jesus' own words is demented.
You're bringing up an old argument, and my answer is the same as it was before. Show me someone who never sins.
Here Jesus explains the process in detail. It is the truth that will make you free. So Jesus makes you free via knowing the truth and the truth is what makes you free. Also there is no claim here that He is the only source of that truth. What's "demented" about this?
Do I really need to explain the following?
"Everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin...If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Try actually reading the words of Jesus. If you believe that there exists no one who no longer commits sin, you must therefore believe that there exists no one who is "free". So I have to ask you, what was the point of starting this thread? If you believe that there exists no one who no longer commits sin, you must therefore believe that there are no true disciples of Jesus. So I have to ask you, what does this say about the state of Christianity?
How can you ignore the logical implications of your position?
17 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIn another thread we explored the fact that in Jewish theology and language there were many words for sin ranging from wilful committing of sin and less serious sins (eg accidental or unintentional sins). There is no jewish word that I know of that expresses the concept of "all sin" , there are different words for different types of sin. So which one was jesus using?
Jesus also said, ""If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Here Jesus explains the process in detail. It is the truth that will make you free. So Jesus makes you free via knowing the truth and the truth is what makes you free. Also there is no claim here that He i tate of Christianity?
How can you ignore the logical implications of your position?
Therefore , we can logically assume that Jesus might well have been talking about a wilful committing of sin or at least one area of sin.
Notice that the translation mentions "committing sin" which could easily suggest a wilful approach to sinning. Also , notice that Jesus saved his wrath for those who did not recognise their sinful ways and were unrepentant , whereas the disciples who were still sinning (eg arguing , doubting , becoming jealous , etc) were loved by Jesus , presumably because they were repentant and confessing their sins.
You did not accept the logical concequences of all this for your position then , nor do I expect you to now. I just thought it worth repeating for the record so that people would realise your argument is far , far from the watertight position you present it to be.
The possible answer to this whole thing could be that no-one is totally free of all sin , but that we can be free of committing sin wilfully and also free of the consequences of sin (via the remission of sin Jesus spoke about) . In the end it's not sin that's really the problem but what sin does to us. It separates us from God. Jesus lifted this separation so that we no longer have to be perfect (something the Jews had tried to do but failed) in order to be in union with God.
I think God just might have the ability (LOL) to distinguish between someone who is wilfully committing sin and someone whose heart is in the right place but ends up drfiting into sin unintentionally
The problem is you don't believe in God or the Holy Spirit , so the idea of a union between yoursself and God makes no sense to you.
18 Jun 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"Here Jesus explains the process in detail. It is the truth that will make you free. So Jesus makes you free via knowing the truth and the truth is what makes you free. Also there is no claim here that He is the only source of that truth. What's "demented" about this?"
Jesus also said, ""If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Here Jesus explains the process in detail. It is the truth that will make you free. So Jesus makes you free via knowing the truth and the truth is what makes you free. Also there is no claim here that He i ...[text shortened]... tate of Christianity?
How can you ignore the logical implications of your position?
#1 I never said that Jesus said that what He meant (in the verse you quoted) suggested that He was the Truth.
#2 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Here, in this verse, Jesus is saying that He is the Truth, and the context suggests that there is no other truth that will bring you to the Father, except Jesus Himself.
As to the question whether an individual stops sinning as a result of following Jesus, I only have this to say: there is no living being who has ever ceased to sin, and anyone who thinks they have because they follow Jesus is diluting themselves and lying to God.
That isn't to say that a person cannot live a life that is pleasing to God.
By the way, what do you mean by "He is [not] the only source of that truth"? What other sources of truth do you believe there are that will make you free?
18 Jun 09
2 edits
Originally posted by josephwI notice that you continue to ignore the logical implications of your position. That said, I'll try to address your points.
[b]"Here Jesus explains the process in detail. It is the truth that will make you free. So Jesus makes you free via knowing the truth and the truth is what makes you free. Also there is no claim here that He is the only source of that truth. What's "demented" about this?"
#1 I never said that Jesus said that what He meant (in the verse you quoted) sug truth"? What other sources of truth do you believe there are that will make you free?[/b]
"#1 I never said that Jesus said that what He meant (in the verse you quoted) suggested that He was the Truth."
I never said you did.
"#2 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Here, in this verse, Jesus is saying that He is the Truth, and the context suggests that there is no other truth that will bring you to the Father, except Jesus Himself.
In the original passage Jesus was speaking of how freedom from committing sin can be achieved and makes no claiming about being the sole source of truth. This passage is about how to get to the Father which isn't necessarily the same thing. Even at that, what Jesus states here doesn't necessarily mean that one cannot get to the Father without ever having heard of Jesus. It depends on how Jesus meant this statement. I don't think He elaborates enough to make it definitive.
"As to the question whether an individual stops sinning as a result of following Jesus, I only have this to say: there is no living being who has ever ceased to sin, and anyone who thinks they have because they follow Jesus is diluting themselves and lying to God.
That isn't to say that a person cannot live a life that is pleasing to God."
You must realize that there's no proof of your assertion that "there is no living being who has ever ceased to sin." Even if you could prove it, it wouldn't necessarily mean that what Jesus said was incorrect. It would only mean that according to Jesus, no one has ever become a true disciple of His since no one had ever known the truth. You're basically putting your belief that "anyone who thinks they have because they follow Jesus is diluting[sic] themselves and lying to God" above this teaching of Jesus. Evidently you need to "continue in [His] word" as He commands. Evidently you don't really believe Jesus and therefore don't believe in Jesus.
"By the way, what do you mean by "He is [not] the only source of that truth"? What other sources of truth do you believe there are that will make you free?"
Hopefully you realize that you took this statement out of context and changed the meaning. That said, truth is truth. How one arrives at the truth is largely irrelevant. What's important is that they do, but the truth will make them free from committing sin.