Free

Originally posted by FMF
I do not see what is wrong with drunkeness and fornication.

The whole list is suspect. For example, what does "uncleanness" even mean?

There are situations in which hatred, wrath, strife and sedition are called for. These things are not necessarily wrong.

Personally, I'm a big fan of heresy. If anything, we need more of it.

Even with items like adultery, much depends on the definition of the word. I would not agree with Jesus' teaching that divorce and remarriage is adultery, for example.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I notice that you continue to ignore the logical implications of your position. That said, I'll try to address your points.

[b]"#1 I never said that Jesus said that what He meant (in the verse you quoted) suggested that He was the Truth."

I never said you did.

"#2 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the F ...[text shortened]... that they do, but the truth will make them free from committing sin.

Just exactly what scriptures do you consider to be the Word of God?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
The whole list is suspect. For example, what does "uncleanness" even mean?

There are situations in which hatred, wrath, strife and sedition are called for. These things are not necessarily wrong.

Personally, I'm a big fan of heresy. If anything, we need more of it.

Even with items like adultery, much depends on the definition of the word. I would not agree with Jesus' teaching that divorce and remarriage is adultery, for example.

Whoa, you don't agree with God?!

I don't think God really cares what you think. LOL. He is the one who decides what is wrong and right, you're just a human with limited vision of ‘the picture of life’. If there was no sin (i.e. the original list) then we would not need to react towards others with hatred, wrath, strife etc... In a perfect world these things would be considered sin even by you. What you are saying is that because this is not a perfect world we can't be expected to have a perfect reaction to others, which makes hatred (etc.) OK in some cases. But you are wrong. What does hatred do to fix a problem? What does a sinful reaction to a sinful action do in the long run? It isn't the feeling of hatred that punishes the evil doer, therefore it is pointless to even have that feeling, it only makes you guilty as well. God will take vengeance, there is nothing we can do to any human that will touch them or punish them in the way that God can.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I notice that you continue to ignore the logical implications of your position. That said, I'll try to address your points.

[b]"#1 I never said that Jesus said that what He meant (in the verse you quoted) suggested that He was the Truth."

I never said you did.

"#2 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the F ...[text shortened]... that they do, but the truth will make them free from committing sin.

That said, truth is truth. How one arrives at the truth is largely irrelevant. What's important is that they do, but the truth will make them free from committing sin

-------------------------ToOne-----------------------------------

You know this how exactly? From personal experience? If you are free from sin then why all this jiggery pokery - just help us all to do it - if not then , well , again - why all this jiggery pokery?

Do you know any other way of being on this forum other than disingenuous jiggery pokery? You seem all smoke and mirrors to me. After all this time you are still at it. If you have the truth (and live it) then tell us all plainly , if not then go away.

Originally posted by knightmeister
That said, truth is truth. How one arrives at the truth is largely irrelevant. What's important is that they do, but the truth will make them free from committing sin

-------------------------ToOne-----------------------------------

You know this how exactly? From personal experience? If you are free from sin then why all this jiggery pokery - ju ...[text shortened]... ill at it. If you have the truth (and live it) then tell us all plainly , if not then go away.

jiggerry-pokery.hee,hee😀-thats classic
I do agree with most of your post though except for "go away"
maybe "change a bit"?

Originally posted by SharpeMother
Whoa, you don't agree with God?!

I don't think God really cares what you think. LOL. He is the one who decides what is wrong and right, you're just a human with limited vision of ‘the picture of life’. If there was no sin (i.e. the original list) then we would not need to react towards others with hatred, wrath, strife etc... In a perfect world thes ...[text shortened]... nothing we can do to any human that will touch them or punish them in the way that God can.

I don't think God really cares what you think. LOL. He is the one who decides what is wrong and right, you're just a human with limited vision of ‘the picture of life’.

This is illogical. It implies that you know what God thinks and decides and that is impossible.

"He?" YWH is not sex-specific. YWH is neither male nor female. It worked for Jesus of Nazareth to refer to God as his 'father' and that's fine for him but not for me.

What does a sinful reaction to a sinful action do in the long run?

This depends on one's definition of sin. I'm absolutely certain that your definition of sin is different from mine.

It isn't the feeling of hatred that punishes the evil doer, therefore it is pointless to even have that feeling, it only makes you guilty as well. God will take vengeance, there is nothing we can do to any human that will touch them or punish them in the way that God can.

Hatred is an unavoidable human emotion. It can be controlled and with due diligence repressed for most and only a few are capable of eliminating hate. I am not one of those so it's far more helpful to me to acquire the skills necessary to channel it positively. If I hate something, if I'm so angry at something as to hate, then therein lies the motivation for me to make positive changes. The hate itself is not the sin; it is how one chooses to act upon it.

I reject your profoundly shallow interpretation of a vengeful of a God. It has no spiritual depth to me...it instead comes across as a knee-jerk reaction on your part to the things that you don't like. What makes you think that God would feel or act on behalf of your ideas on what and who should be punished? That's a mighty broad assumption on your part.

Originally posted by josephw
Just exactly what scriptures do you consider to be the Word of God?

I believe in the teachings of Jesus. Jesus said to continue in HIS word, not the Bible. Jesus said to follow HIM, not others.

Do you believe in the teachings of Jesus or the teachings of others? Your position has logical implications that indicate it is not the former. If you can be honest with yourself, you'll know this to be true.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I believe in the teachings of Jesus. Jesus said to continue in HIS word, not the Bible. Jesus said to follow HIM, not others.

Do you believe in the teachings of Jesus or the teachings of others? Your position has logical implications that indicate it is not the former. If you can be honest with yourself, you'll know this to be true.

I noticed that in His great prayer He prayed for all those who believe into Him because of the teaching of His apostles:

"And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe in Me through their word ..." (John 17:21)

He wanted them to propogate His gospel message in life, deed, and teaching. And He prayed for those who received their teaching and believed into Christ as a result.

So the little sheep are to follow the faithful older sheep. There is one chief shepherd Jesus.

Of course He expected the disciples to be faithful. And they will be judged by Him one day as to their faithfulness. But of course He expected people to "follow" Him through their heeding the example and teaching of the faithful apostles:

"Go therefore and disciple all the nations baptizing them into that name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:19,20)

We follow Christ and we follow the faithful followers.

Originally posted by jaywill
I noticed that in His great prayer He prayed for all those who believe into Him because of the teaching of His apostles:

[b]"And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe in Me through their word ..." (John 17:21)

He wanted them to propogate His gospel message in life, deed, and teaching. And He prayed for those w ...[text shortened]... the age." (Matt. 28:19,20) [/b]

We follow Christ and we follow the faithful followers.[/b]

bahh!!

Originally posted by SharpeMother
Whoa, you don't agree with God?!

I don't think God really cares what you think. LOL. He is the one who decides what is wrong and right, you're just a human with limited vision of ‘the picture of life’. If there was no sin (i.e. the original list) then we would not need to react towards others with hatred, wrath, strife etc... In a perfect world thes nothing we can do to any human that will touch them or punish them in the way that God can.

As I recall, my disagreement is with josephw. Perhaps he got a promotion I'm unaware of. 🙂

I don't think God really cares what you think. LOL. He is the one who decides what is wrong and right

So, if God decides that unlimited killing on Wednesday is right, you don't have a problem with that?

you're just a human with limited vision of ‘the picture of life’.

As are you.

What you are saying is that because this is not a perfect world we can't be expected to have a perfect reaction to others, which makes hatred (etc.) OK in some cases. But you are wrong.

Really? Was King David wrong when he wrote in the Psalms that he hates the enemies of God with 'perfect hatred'?

What does a sinful reaction to a sinful action do in the long run?

This is just question-begging. It has not yet been established that hate is necessarily sinful.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
As I recall, my disagreement is with josephw. Perhaps he got a promotion I'm unaware of. 🙂

[b]I don't think God really cares what you think. LOL. He is the one who decides what is wrong and right

So, if God decides that unlimited killing on Wednesday is right, you don't have a problem with that?

you're just a human with limited vision of s just question-begging. It has not yet been established that hate is necessarily sinful.

Josephw is my dad. I am his 21 year old daughter. I've given him 2 grandsons, with a 3rd due any day. I think that qualifies me to insert my thoughts on his behalf. 🙂

I don't think that hate is in every case sinful. I believe that in almost every case hatred is of our flesh:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings..."

Walking after the flesh is what is sinful. It’s a state of mind where we allow ourselves to think selfishly, and we give in to what our flesh (physical bodies) want. I believe that if it is possible to feel/do something listed above, without being in the flesh while feeling/doing it, then it might not be a sin.

But the majority of the time I can say confidently that hate is a sin.

"Really? Was King David wrong when he wrote in the Psalms that he hates the enemies of God with 'perfect hatred'?"

I’m not familiar with the passage you’re referring to, but I would assume that King David was able to do just that - have hatred towards someone without walking in the flesh while feeling that way. When God hated Esau it was also what I would call a ‘perfect hatred’.

Originally posted by Badwater
[b]I don't think God really cares what you think. LOL. He is the one who decides what is wrong and right, you're just a human with limited vision of ‘the picture of life’.

This is illogical. It implies that you know what God thinks and decides and that is impossible.

"He?" YWH is not sex-specific. YWH is neither male nor female. It worked for Jesu on what and who should be punished? That's a mighty broad assumption on your part.[/b]

"This is illogical. It implies that you know what God thinks and decides and that is impossible."

We can all know what God thinks simply by reading our Bibles. I don't think it is too far out there to say that God decides what is wrong and right - did He not write the Ten Commandments? Or do you believe that Moses was the one who wrote them? Duh.

""He?" YWH is not sex-specific. YWH is neither male nor female. It worked for Jesus of Nazareth to refer to God as his 'father' and that's fine for him but not for me."

God is male. The entire Bible is riddled with references of God as "He". You go ahead and call Him "it" if you want, but I will continue to call Him what He is - a male who was able to impregnate a woman and have a Son who called Him Father.

"This depends on one's definition of sin. I'm absolutely certain that your definition of sin is different from mine."

It doesn't matter what our definition of sin is, it is God's definition of sin that matters. I will go by what He says is sin, and if you do the same then we will agree.

"...only a few are capable of eliminating hate. I am not one of those so it's far more helpful to me to acquire the skills necessary to channel it positively."

I think that we are given the ability to eliminate any sin in our lives, even hate. You could be one of those who are capable of eliminating hate if you choose to be. I think it's a weak excuse that you believe yourself to be incapable.

"I reject your profoundly shallow interpretation of a vengeful of a God. It has no spiritual depth to me...it instead comes across as a knee-jerk reaction on your part to the things that you don't like. What makes you think that God would feel or act on behalf of your ideas on what and who should be punished? That's a mighty broad assumption on your part."

God says Himself, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord". So you say that my interpretation of a vengeful God is shallow? Have you ever read the Bible? God is vengeful. Everybody knows that. I never said nor implied that God would feel or act on behalf of my ideas of what and who should be punished. But God did give me a conscience that tells me what is right and wrong and it is this that leads me to assume that certain people will receive God's vengeance.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I believe in the teachings of Jesus. Jesus said to continue in HIS word, not the Bible. Jesus said to follow HIM, not others.

Do you believe in the teachings of Jesus or the teachings of others? Your position has logical implications that indicate it is not the former. If you can be honest with yourself, you'll know this to be true.

I believe in the teachings of Jesus. Jesus said to continue in HIS word, not the Bible. Jesus said to follow HIM, not others.
----------------ToO-----------------------------------------

So what happened to his "church" and to those who were supposed to follow him? Were you the only one?

Jesus also taught that he would be present with us "until the end of the age" and promised the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth. He also said his sacrifice was for remission of sin and compared his body to the body of the Passover lamb.

Do you also agree with these teachings? Or only some?

Originally posted by SharpeMother
[b]"This is illogical. It implies that you know what God thinks and decides and that is impossible."

We can all know what God thinks simply by reading our Bibles. I don't think it is too far out there to say that God decides what is wrong and right - did He not write the Ten Commandments? Or do you believe that Moses was the one who wrote them? ...[text shortened]... ds me to assume that certain people will receive God's vengeance.[/b]

Wow. You could totally use some seminary training. If the opportunity ever arises, take advantage of it.

Originally posted by SharpeMother
Josephw is my dad. I am his 21 year old daughter. I've given him 2 grandsons, with a 3rd due any day. I think that qualifies me to insert my thoughts on his behalf. 🙂

I don't think that hate is in every case sinful. I believe that in almost every case hatred is of our flesh:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, f ...[text shortened]... feeling that way. When God hated Esau it was also what I would call a ‘perfect hatred’.

Josephw is my dad. I am his 21 year old daughter. I've given him 2 grandsons, with a 3rd due any day. I think that qualifies me to insert my thoughts on his behalf.

How about inserting thoughts on God's behalf? Are you, dad, and the apostle Paul really qualified to do that?

As for the rest, I see we are in agreement that hate is not always wrong. Glad we cleared that up.