29 Jul 10
Originally posted by galveston75Over 7,000,000 .. you must be right then.
Over 7 million who used to be of other religions or ones like yourself who were floating around on their own, that agree.... And there are other JW's at RHP who do not waist there time as I do discussing this with you. So no...I'm not alone.
Good for you.
30 Jul 10
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75While I'm not trying to be hateful or anything Raj Has a very valid point here.
No it's not my definition at all but it's the Bible's definition at John 1: 12, 13 & Rom 8: 14, 16, 17.
But notice especially where it says in Romans that God's spirit bears witness with our spirit or "referring to the ones of the first fruits." And John mentions "God's will, not mans".
So if God's will has chosen you to be of this group, you will co that no one can number" that the bible speaks of that will survive armegeddon.
Revelation 14
The Lamb and the 144,000 on Mount Zion
1Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
This women you knew while maybe sincere she was sincerely wrong Case and point Verse 4. They were not defiled with?? Women which means the 144,000 are men plain and simple. You can't argue this at all. Also they were virgins so any elders among you that have had children can be ruled out also.
Manny
30 Jul 10
Originally posted by menace71Well Rajj does have good questions and I wish we could have decent conversations but that's another subject.
While I'm not trying to be hateful or anything Raj Has a very valid point here.
Revelation 14
The Lamb and the 144,000 on Mount Zion
1Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from he ...[text shortened]... ey were virgins so any elders among you that have had children can be ruled out also.
Manny
It's late and I'll give more details tomorrow but a couple points again about the 12 tribes which one I already gave to Rajj and he blew it off but because of the issues with the tribes not being literal is one.
The other point is if one were to think about trying to find 144,000 virgins in that relatively small counrty as that, it might be a challange. Not a big point but one to concider.
Also Rom2:28, 29 & Ga 3:26-29 explains that one does not have to be a literal Jew to be viewed as one and this would apply to being one of the 144,000.
From the Insight Book.... And please look up these scriptures in your Bible.
"144,000 ‘not defiled with women.’
In Revelation 14:1-4, the 144,000 described as standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion are said to have been “bought from the earth. These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.” These are shown as having a more intimate relationship with the Lamb than any others do, being the only ones to master the “new song.” (Re 14:1-4) This would indicate that they make up the “bride” of the Lamb. (Re 21:9) They are spiritual persons, as revealed by the fact that they stand on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb. Therefore their ‘not defiling themselves with women’ and their being “virgins” would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married, for the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry. (1Ti 3:2; 4:1, 3) Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. (Ga 3:28) The “women” therefore must be symbolic women, doubtless religious organizations such as Babylon the Great and her ‘daughters,’ false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless. (Re 17:5) This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.
Also Babylon the Great or false religion as a whole is refered to as a Harlot...A woman.
31 Jul 10
Originally posted by galveston75I think your pushing and stretching the meaning again. All it says about the 144K is that they were purchased from WHERE? The EARTH!! And they were virgins by virtue of not having been defiled by Women. They are First fruits. If there is a first something follows.
Well Rajj does have good questions and I wish we could have decent conversations but that's another subject.
It's late and I'll give more details tomorrow but a couple points again about the 12 tribes which one I already gave to Rajj and he blew it off but because of the issues with the tribes not being literal is one.
The other point is if one were ...[text shortened]... .
Also Babylon the Great or false religion as a whole is refered to as a Harlot...A woman.
Why is the tribe of Dan omitted? I think they were in rebellion against the other tribes.
Manny
31 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71More info on the 144,000 and who they are and what they'll be doing in heaven. Also notice that women were included in the early selections of the 144,000.
I think your pushing and stretching the meaning again. All it says about the 144K is that they were purchased from WHERE? The EARTH!! And they were virgins by virtue of not having been defiled by Women. They are First fruits. If there is a first something follows.
Why is the tribe of Dan omitted? I think they were in rebellion against the other tribes.
Manny
“Things in the Heavens”
The apostle Peter summed up the wonderful hope of true Christians when he wrote: “There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.” (2 Peter 3:13) The “new heavens” here promised refer to the new governing authority, the Messianic Kingdom. “The things in the heavens” mentioned by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians are to be gathered “in the Christ.” They are the limited number of humans chosen to rule with Christ in the heavens. (1 Peter 1:3, 4) These 144,000 anointed Christians are “bought from the earth,” “bought from among mankind,” to be joint heirs with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom.—Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:3, 4; 2 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 1:11; 3:6.
Anointed Christians are brought forth, or born again, by the holy spirit to become Jehovah’s spiritual sons. (John 1:12, 13; 3:5-7) Being adopted by Jehovah as “sons,” they become Jesus’ brothers. (Romans 8:15; Ephesians 1:5) As such, even while on earth, they are said to be ‘raised up and seated together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.’ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6) They occupy this elevated spiritual position because they have been “sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of [their] inheritance” reserved for them in the heavens. (Ephesians 1:13, 14; Colossians 1:5) These, then, are “the things in the heavens,” of whom the total number foreordained by Jehovah needed to be gathered.
The Gathering Begins
In line with Jehovah’s “administration,” or way of managing things, the gathering of “the things in the heavens” was to begin “at the full limit of the appointed times.” (Ephesians 1:10)
That due time arrived at Pentecost 33 C.E. That day, holy spirit was poured out on the apostles and a group of disciples, men and
"""women""". (Acts 1:13-15; 2:1-4)
This gave evidence that the new covenant had come into operation, marking the birth of the Christian congregation and of the new nation of spiritual Israel, “the Israel of God.”—Galatians 6:16; Hebrews 9:15; 12:23, 24.
The Law covenant made with fleshly Israel did not produce “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” that would serve forever in heaven. (Exodus 19:5, 6) Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders: “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matthew 21:43) That nation, spiritual Israel, is composed of anointed Christians taken into the new covenant. To these, the apostle Peter wrote: “You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God’s people.” (1 Peter 2:9, 10)
"""" Fleshly Israel were no longer Jehovah’s covenant people. (Hebrews 8:7-13) As Jesus had foretold, the privilege of being a part of the Messianic Kingdom was taken from them and given to the 144,000 members of spiritual Israel.—Revelation 7:4-8.""""
And I'm looking up the info on the tribe of Dan... Steve.
03 Aug 10
I disagree totally with your use of these other scriptures. The first mention of the 144,000 is in Revelation and I think this scripture gives all of the detail we know about the 144,000. It flat out reads that they had never been defiled with WHAT? WOMEN opposed to WHAT? MEN that is. Why is this fact even mention if it is of no real relevance?
Manny
03 Aug 10
Originally posted by menace71Ok.......
I disagree totally with your use of these other scriptures. The first mention of the 144,000 is in Revelation and I think this scripture gives all of the detail we know about the 144,000. It flat out reads that they had never been defiled with WHAT? WOMEN opposed to WHAT? MEN that is. Why is this fact even mention if it is of no real relevance?
Manny
03 Aug 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75I think Im in good company. Your organisation that call themselves Jehovah Witnesses are a relatively new group, less than 100 years old I think. It means that of the 2000 years since Christ came, around 1900 of those years followers of Christ were what you refer to as spiritually blind.
The question has been answered but it seems your to blind spiritually to see it.... Go figure.
You nust be the one spiritually blind to think that the light of spirituality only arrived with Charles Russell around 1900.
04 Aug 10
Originally posted by Rajk999http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_10.htm
I think Im in good company. Your organisation that call themselves Jehovah Witnesses are a relatively new group, less than 100 years old I think. It means that of the 2000 years since Christ came, around 1900 of those years followers of Christ were what you refer to as spiritually blind.
You nust be the one spiritually blind to think that the light of spirituality only arrived with Charles Russell around 1900.
Yes it was about that time or a little before. So what does that have to do with anything?
Just because something is old and accepted by the wortld that Satan rules anyway does not mean it's right by any means. In fact the longer that a religion has been around like the Catholics is more time they've had to formulate all the false doctrines they have. Lol.
So I see no importance to your statement at all....