19 Feb 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke● Exodus 33:20 states: “There shall no man see me, and live.” Yet Exodus 24:10 says concerning Moses and some of the elders of Israel: “They saw the God of Israel.” How can these apparently conflicting statements be harmonized?—C. B., Pennsylvania.
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
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It is literally true that no flesh-and-blood organism could see Jehovah God and live. As a spirit creature Christ is “the image of the invisible God” and “the exact representation of his very being”, yet a partial revealment of his glory was so intensely brilliant that it blinded Saul of Tarsus, and sight returned only after a miracle of God. (Acts 9:1-18; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3, NW) A full view of “the Father of the celestial lights” would be more than human flesh could endure.—Jas. 1:17, NW.
When the Bible speaks of Moses or others as seeing Jehovah God it means that they see a manifestation of his glory, and this is usually given by means of an angelic representative of the Almighty. Hence it is that Exodus 24:16 speaks of “the glory of the LORD” abiding upon Mount Sinai, rather than Jehovah himself, when Moses and others were reported as seeing “the God of Israel”. This “glory of the LORD” was due to the presence of one of Jehovah’s angels, for his glory and his angel are associated together, as at Luke 2:9 (NW) when announcement of Jesus’ birth was made to the shepherds: “Suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood by them and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them.”
We have direct testimony that Jehovah personally did not come down to Mount Sinai and appear and talk to Moses and deliver the Law to him. That Jehovah appeared and spoke only representatively is shown by the following scriptures. “You who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.” “It was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.” Paul referred to the Law as “the word spoken through angels”. (Acts 7:53; Gal. 3:19; Heb. 2:2, NW) Because at Sinai God did not speak with his own voice but by that of his angelic representative, Exodus 19:19 states: “Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.” The foregoing also enlightens us that it was the back of Jehovah’s angel or glory that Moses saw, and not Jehovah himself, as recorded: “When my glory passes by . . . I will take away my hand, so that you may see my back, while my face shall not be seen.”—Ex. 33:22, 23, AT.
Another instance where God’s Word interprets itself for us on this matter is the case of Moses and the burning bush. Exodus 3:4, 6 states that “God called unto him out of the midst of the bush” and “said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”. But verse 2 tells us that “the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush”. Hence Jehovah appeared and spoke only representatively.
Again, when Jacob wrestled with a man that was actually a materialized angel of Jehovah he was blessed with a new name, that of Israel. Israel means “ruling with God; soldier (wrestler) with God”; and Jacob called the location “Peniel”, meaning “face of God”, saying, “I have seen God face to face.” (Gen. 32:24-30) But actually it was only Jehovah’s materialized angel that he had seen and wrestled with, and who withheld his name, as was usual with such materialized spirit creatures. Also, when an angel of God appeared to Manoah and his wife they viewed this representative as God himself: “Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.”—Judg. 13:3-22.
The foremost representative of Jehovah God is Christ Jesus, and in his case also this principle is confirmed. Jehovah God is rightly referred to as the Creator of all things, yet we know from the Bible record that after he directly created his “only-begotten Son” the remainder of the creation work was performed by and through that Son, in his capacity as the Logos or Word. But since he was Jehovah’s representative and workman in this creative activity, and empowered by God to do it, Jehovah himself is spoken of as the Creator of heavens and earth. (Isa. 40:26, 28; John 1:10; Col. 1:16; Rev. 3:14) For similar reasons, and because Jesus’ course and speech on earth were so perfectly representative of Jehovah God, Jesus said: “He that has seen me has seen the Father also.” (John 14:9, NW) So this text proves no trinity teaching, no more so than do references that seeing angels was seeing God prove the representative angels were embraced in any trinity godhead.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieHave you ever played a video game sir where at the final level you defeat the 'big boss' and revel in your victory?
● Exodus 33:20 states: “There shall no man see me, and live.” Yet Exodus 24:10 says concerning Moses and some of the elders of Israel: “They saw the God of Israel.” How can these apparently conflicting statements be harmonized?—C. B., Pennsylvania.
It is literally true that no flesh-and-blood organism could see Jehovah God and live. As a spirit cr ...[text shortened]... s was seeing God prove the representative angels were embraced in any trinity godhead.
jw.org
Why would you take such a victory away from Jacob? (Reenactment below)
"Horray!" Cried Jacob. "God had to cheat to stop be beating him in a wrestling match. Technically i defeated him. This is the greatest day of my life!"
"Sorry dude," replied Robbie, while munching on a veggie burger. "That wasn't God, just an angel."
"Oh man really?"
"And that whole ladder to heaven thing, just a dream."
20 Feb 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat's funny, I was thinking the same of you. I'm not surprised you do not recognize truth, since you've not ever been exposed to very much of it.
Ummm the only thing that I seem to recall from exchanges with you is that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Now the jw organization is a different story, since they created their myths, they weren't foisted off on the organization as truth, as it was foisted off onto the "man-in-the-street" JW. They knew what they were doing, just as much as the JW congregations don't know what they are agreeing to, just taking their masters at their word.
In short, it's not your fault that you don't know what you're talking about. You've just swallowed the JW mythos hook, line and sinker, that's all. In other words, ye know not what ye do.
20 Feb 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis is precisely what I was talking about earlier in this thread.
● Exodus 33:20 states: “There shall no man see me, and live.” Yet Exodus 24:10 says concerning Moses and some of the elders of Israel: “They saw the God of Israel.” How can these apparently conflicting statements be harmonized?—C. B., Pennsylvania.
It is literally true that no flesh-and-blood organism could see Jehovah God and live. As a spirit cr ...[text shortened]... s was seeing God prove the representative angels were embraced in any trinity godhead.
jw.org
You are so far out of the mainstream of Christian thinking that you really have no place in this discussion. 90% of this post is pure twaddle. Of course the 10% that is left is just enough to get you to swallow the rest as fact, but the rest of us are not so handicapped.
The more you post about JW doctrine, the more the rest of us just shake our heads and realize that you guys have been deluded by a corporation who does not have your best interests at heart. Kind of like the way that normal, middle class Americans have been deluded by the Republican party into voting for people who couldn't really care any less about them.
20 Feb 16
Originally posted by Suziannewow I heard you on Charlie Brown, you're the school teacher, whup whup whup!
That's funny, I was thinking the same of you. I'm not surprised you do not recognize truth, since you've not ever been exposed to very much of it.
Now the jw organization is a different story, since they created their myths, they weren't foisted off on the organization as truth, as it was foisted off onto the "man-in-the-street" JW. They knew what they ...[text shortened]... the JW mythos hook, line and sinker, that's all. In other words, ye know not what ye do.
Originally posted by SuzianneYeah but we already have established your opinions are meaningless because you cannot substantiate a single one of them. Who are you attempting to fool with this emptiness? Your entire text, its a clashing cymbal!
This is precisely what I was talking about earlier in this thread.
You are so far out of the mainstream of Christian thinking that you really have no place in this discussion. 90% of this post is pure twaddle. Of course the 10% that is left is just enough to get you to swallow the rest as fact, but the rest of us are not so handicapped.
The more you ...[text shortened]... ded by the Republican party into voting for people who couldn't really care any less about them.
20 Feb 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieLet me get this straight.
You have made several strawman arguments attempting to utilize values that have not been explicitly expressed and you did indeed attempt to use an argument from ignorance basing it on what we allegedly do not know rather than what we do and using this a some kind of premise for negating looking at the original text. Personally i am done arguing with ...[text shortened]... can understand the Bible, utter and complete nonsense, bilge-water I would go as far as saying.
Are you really arguing with him about who he actually wanted to hear from in this thread?
20 Feb 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieLook, do let us know when you are done, and the adults in here can begin to answer DT's questions.
Yeah but we already have established your opinions are meaningless because you cannot substantiate a single one of them. Who are you attempting to fool with this emptiness? Your entire text, its a clashing cymbal!
22 Feb 16
The following verses provide more information on our topic of discussion"
John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." Let us carry on with our discussion.
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22 Feb 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSorry to say this, Robbie, but really, all this copying and pasting from the Watchtower is a bit like having a pamphlet forcibly shoved in the face or through the door.
● Exodus 33:20 states: “There shall no man see me, and live.” Yet Exodus 24:10 says concerning Moses and some of the elders of Israel: “They saw the God of Israel.” How can these apparently conflicting statements be harmonized?—C. B., Pennsylvania.
It is literally true that no flesh-and-blood organism could see Jehovah God and live. As a spirit cr ...[text shortened]... s was seeing God prove the representative angels were embraced in any trinity godhead.
jw.org
22 Feb 16
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt amusing when you make posts like this admonishing people when you have admitted the following:
● Exodus 33:20 states: “There shall no man see me, and live.” Yet Exodus 24:10 says concerning Moses and some of the elders of Israel: “They saw the God of Israel.” How can these apparently conflicting statements be harmonized?—C. B., Pennsylvania.
It is literally true that no flesh-and-blood organism could see Jehovah God and live. As a spirit cr ...[text shortened]... s was seeing God prove the representative angels were embraced in any trinity godhead.
jw.org
- Jesus is not God
- Jesus is an angel called Michael
- Jesus is not Almighty God but he is a "Mighty God" (from your interpretation of Isaiah 9:6)
- Jehovah is almighty God and Jesus is Mighty God. But Jesus is not God, he is an angel.
- Jehovah is your saviour
- Jesus is also your saviour (he actually does for your sins, right?)
- You have two saviours
- One of them is an angel, who died for your sins
- two Gods, two saviours one of whom is an angel who died for your sins
And you wonder why I think your organisation is not "Christian" and call you out over this stuff.
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22 Feb 16
Originally posted by divegeesterIt's the Watchtower.
It amusing when you make posts like this admonishing people when you have admitted the following:
- Jesus is not God
- Jesus is an angel called Michael
- Jesus is not Almighty God but he is a "Mighty God" (from your interpretation of Isaiah 9:6)
- Jehovah is almighty God and Jesus is Mighty God. But Jesus is not God, he is an angel.
- Jehovah is y ...[text shortened]... nd you wonder why I think your organisation is not "Christian" and call you out over this stuff.
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22 Feb 16
Originally posted by FMFIt does indeed offer all of that. And it calls itself the Truth.
It offers certain things. Belonging. Order. Hope. Purpose.
That "certainty" is reinforced in its members' literature, in their meetings, in daily prayer meetings if a member attends those, in the literature given to the public, on its website and in countless other ways, subtle and unsubtle.
It's also reinforced by the strict requirements placed on a member, with dire consequences ensuing if they are not adhered to, such as shunning not only by the congregation but by their own families.
I don't know many Jehovah's Witnesses but among the small number that I do know are several instances where sons and daughters are shunned by parents and/or siblings, where a parent is shunned, and where lifelong friends are shunned. Also remember, that because "worldly" friendships are discouraged, one turning their back on the religion feels socially isolated, and may still retain a deep fear of destruction at Armageddon. Because Jehovah's Witnesses are told that God (Jehovah) will save only his faithful Witnesses. Their literature is full of graphic pictures of all, even babes in arms being destroyed in Jehovah's wrath.