Genesis 1:1 , John 1:1

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
First of all its not my argument, I did not author it, its written in the Bible. This is the
second time I have pointed it out and it rather tedious to have to do so again and again.

Secondly the argument of 'no one seeing Gods face' and the logic of this as it applies
to those who claim Jesus is God most certainly rules out him being part o ...[text shortened]... be God to be part of the trinity

Sound, Biblically substantiated and logically unassailable!

But it's not logically unassailable is it. It is your argument, the Bible has some content which you are basing your argument on. My point is that if Jesus of Nazareth is part of a Triune God then the incarnation simply has to be set up so that those who look at him do not automatically die. This only has to be done once and would be part of the incarnation, I see no reason for repeated interventions. Sorry, but if you want to disprove the Trinity then you'll have to look elsewhere.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
First of all its not my argument, I did not author it, its written in the Bible. This is the
second time I have pointed it out and it rather tedious to have to do so again and again.

Secondly the argument of 'no one seeing Gods face' and the logic of this as it applies
to those who claim Jesus is God most certainly rules out him being part o ...[text shortened]... be God to be part of the trinity

Sound, Biblically substantiated and logically unassailable!

Back to this, just for a moment. Your argument here is childish in the extreme.

Once again, you show exactly how far out of the mainstream your bizarre ideas take you.

If you did not create your dogma from your scripture, as most denominations do, then exactly where do you get your dogma? It seems little more than a simple bastardization of traditional Christian dogma. It also existed long before your "current" scripture. So from where did you get it? Thin air?

Originally posted by DeepThought
But it's not logically unassailable is it. It is your argument, the Bible has some content which you are basing your argument on. My point is that if Jesus of Nazareth is part of a Triune God then the incarnation simply has to be set up so that those who look at him do not automatically die. This only has to be done once and would be part of the incar ...[text shortened]... terventions. Sorry, but if you want to disprove the Trinity then you'll have to look elsewhere.

What a pile of complete and utter unadulterated balderdash you have written.

You have been unable to assail the logic with anything other than some kind of made up fantasy proviso that God must have protected those who saw Jesus and here you are pontificating to others that they need to look at their own reasoning, bwahahahah, thanks for the laugh, let the good times roll.

Nanoo nanoo Mork calling Orsen come in Orsen.

Now lets run though it again so you grasp the logic.
No one can see God and live - Bible

The Bible tells us that certain Old Testament saints saw God.
I think you argue that they saw a secondhand representative called the Angel of Jehovah. And for that reason they lived.

The reason they lived is that God, in His transcendence over time, viewed them as being included in the redemption of Christ. He was not limited to time. Though Christ had not been incarnated, God still showed that He viewed His believers through the eternal redemption of Christ.

Case in point - Isaiah 6:1-7

"In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting on a high and lofty throne, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

Seraphim hovered over Him, each having six wings: With two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet; and with two he flew.

And one called to the other, saying: Holy, holy, holy, Jehovah of hosts; The whole earth is filled with His glory.

And the foundations of the threshold shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.

Then I said, Woe is me, for I am finished!
For I am a man of unclean lips,
And in the midst of a people of unclean lips I dwell;
Yet my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts." (vs.1-5)

Without doubt, Isaiah the prophet SAW God, the King of Israel - Jehovah of hosts.
And he expected that because of his sinfulness he was going to DIE.

But what happens?

" Then one of the seraphim flew to me with an ember in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with a pair of tongs.

And he touched my mouth with it and said, Now that this has touched your lips, Your iniquity is taken away, and your sin is purged. "

The ember from the altar signifies the effectiveness of Christ's redemption accomplished on the cross. The word "purged" can also be expiated. Though timewise this is before the incarnation and redemptive death of the Son of God, in God's eyes, that act transcends all time. Christ as the redemptive Lamb of God was sacrificed "from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8)

The purging and expiating coal which cleansed away the sinfulness of the prophet points to Christ's redemption. Isaiah did not die because God is viewing Isaiah, through His time transcending sight, which is not limited by time, through the redemption of Christ.

That the Triune God is indicated in Isaiah 6 is indicated by the immediately following words:

"Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send ? Who will go for Us?" (v.8a)

This is the same Divine "Us" as is indicated in the mighty prayer of Jesus in John 17

"That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us ..." (v.21a)

What God IS in His triune nature cannot be separated from what God DOES in His economy. He is about dispensing God into man. The Messiah is also called "the Branch of Jehovah" , or the "Shoot". This means God is overflowing or branching out to impart Himself into His saved people.

Originally posted by sonship

Now lets run though it again so you grasp the logic.
No one can see God and live - Bible

The Bible tells us that certain Old Testament saints saw God.
I think you argue that they saw a secondhand representative called the Angel of Jehovah. And for that reason they lived.

The reason they lived is that God, in His transcendence ove ...[text shortened]... t". This means God is overflowing or branching out to impart Himself into His saved people.[/b]

I provided an excellent article on what they actually saw and how we know. I suggest you read it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I provided an excellent article on what they actually saw and how we know. I suggest you read it.

I recall reading it. And I will read it again.
This post of mine is a reply to some of its concepts.

All the offerings. all the atoning sacrifices, all the propitiatory actions ordained by God in the Old Testament were FORESHADOWS of the redemption of Jesus Christ.

From the heavenly viewpoint of God, He could look at people as though they were already under the redeeming salvation of the Son of God.

I may respond to that article in more detail.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Speaking of "sound, biblically substantiated and logically unassailable", try this one on for size. I already asked roigam about this but he is either ignoring me, or would rather not answer it. He claims that Isaiah 43:10 means that Jehovah's Witnesses are the "chosen people", i.e. those that "witness to the entire world" near the end-times and that no o ...[text shortened]... se: "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." What do you think this means?

Bump for Robbie.

Are you going to ignore this too, like roigam did?

THE DIVINE TRINITY AS REVEALED
IN THE CASE OF SAMSON

Judges 13:3-25 says, “The Angel Of Jehovah appeared to the woman...Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came to me; and His appearance was like the appearance of an angel of God...Then Manoah entreated Jehovah and said, Oh, my Lord! Let the man of God, whom You sent, come again to us, I pray; and let Him teach us what we should do with the boy that is to be born...And the Angel of God came again to the woman...And the woman hurried and ran off; and she told her husband and said to him, The man who came to me that day has just appeared to me. And Manoah rose up and followed his wife and came to the man...And Manoah said to the Angel Of Jehovah, Let us detain You, we pray, that we may prepare a kid for You. And the Angel Of Jehovah said to Manoah...If you prepare a burnt offering, offer it up to Jehovah. For Manoah did not know that He was the Angel Of Jehovah. Then Manoah said to the Angel Of Jehovah, What is Your name?...And the Angel Of Jehovah said to him, Why do you ask about My name, since it is wonderful? And Manoah took the kid with the meal offering and offered it up upon the rock to Jehovah; and He acted wondrously, while Manoah and his wife looked on. And when the flame went up from the altar to heaven, the Angel Of Jehovah went up in the flame of the altar...Then Manoah knew that He was the Angel Of Jehovah. And Manoah said to his wife, We will surely die, for we have seen God...And the woman bore a son, and she called his name Samson...And Jehovah blessed him. And the Spirit of Jehovah began to move him at Mahaneh-dan.” Judges 14:19 and 15:14 say, “The Spirit of Jehovah rushed upon him.”

The Angel in Judges 13 is called the Angel Of Jehovah and the Angel of God. However, He is also called a man. This was Christ as a man more than a thousand years before His incarnation. This fact cannot be systematized. The Angel Of Jehovah and the Angel of God refer to Christ as the sent One of God. The Angel Of Jehovah did not allow Manoah to offer anything to Him but told Manoah to make an offering to Jehovah (v. 16). Thus, the Angel kept His position as the sent One, just as the Lord Jesus did (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38; 7:16; 12:44).

Manoah asked the Angel Of Jehovah, “What is Your name?” Manoah's wife needed her husband to negotiate. The Angel came to her twice, but she did not ask who He was. When we deal with others, it is important to know their name, especially if we may need to reach them again. Manoah attempted to discover the Angel's identity, first by trying to offer something to Him and then by asking His name. The Angel Of Jehovah answered Manoah in a peculiar way, saying, “Why do you ask about My name, since it is wonderful?” A few hundred years later, the prophet Isaiah received a revelation concerning this One. Isaiah 9:6 says, “A child is born to us, / A Son is given to us... / And His name will be called / Wonderful Counselor, / Mighty God, / Eternal Father.” When Manoah made an offering to Jehovah, the One whose name was wonderful “acted wondrously” (Judg. 13:19). There is no record of exactly what He did, because it was too wonderful to explain. When something is truly wonderful, we cannot explain it. Then Manoah and his wife saw the Angel Of Jehovah ascend in the flame of the altar. This was truly wonderful and caused Manoah to know that He was the Angel Of Jehovah. When Manoah realized that he had been speaking to the Angel Of Jehovah, he said to his wife, “We have seen God.” Thus, in Judges 13 the Angel Of Jehovah is called the Angel of God, a man, and God.

From The Divine Trinity as Revealed in the Holy Word by Witness Lee
[chapter 9 section 3, Published by Living Stream Ministry] My bolding

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0A1CCC9D8A01

In Genesis 48:15-16 Jacob said at the end of his life, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, / The God who has shepherded me all my life to this day, / The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys.” The God before whom Abraham and Isaac walked and the God who shepherded Jacob all his life was the Angel who redeemed him from all evil. The following book, Exodus, reveals that this Angel is Jehovah, God, and the Triune God. This precious One is everything—He is our Provider, our Healer, our triumph, our peace, our Shepherd, our righteousness, and our enjoyment. This Old Testament revelation of the Lord's all-inclusiveness seems to belong to the New Testament. However, there are many riches in the Old Testament that cannot be found in the New Testament.

The Angel Of Jehovah being Jehovah and God, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, implies the Divine Trinity for saving God's people into the enjoyment of the Divine Trinity. This point is based on Exodus 3, in which the Angel Of Jehovah told Moses, “I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey” (v. 8).

The Divine Trinity came as the sent One (the Angel) to save God's people into the enjoyment of the Divine Trinity from their fallen state, their slavery in Egypt (vv. 8-10); to serve the Triune God (v. 12); to be God's firstborn son (4:22-23), implying the impartation of the divine life into God's redeemed people; and to hold a feast unto the Triune God (5:1), implying the enjoyment of God's redeemed people with the Triune God. God's redeemed people enjoyed the Triune God with the Triune God. To hold a feast unto the Triune God is to enjoy the Triune God as our feast, and we enjoy this feast with Him. This indicates again that the Trinity is for God's dispensing of Himself into His redeemed people for their enjoyment. The underlying thought in the Bible is that the Divine Trinity is not for doctrine or teachings but for the dispensing of God into us for our enjoyment. The Divine Trinity is for God's dispensing and our enjoyment.

[ The Divine Trinity as Revealed in the Holy Word, Chapter 2, Section 2, Living Stream Ministry)

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0A1CCC9D8402

● Exodus 33:20 states: “There shall no man see me, and live.” Yet Exodus 24:10 says concerning Moses and some of the elders of Israel: “They saw the God of Israel.” How can these apparently conflicting statements be harmonized?—C. B., Pennsylvania.
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Under the redemption of Christ the Christians certainly spiritually see God's face in Christ in order to be transformed into the same image:

" Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

This means in the Holy Spirit, the regenerated believer can, in his heart, gaze upon the glory of God in the face of Jesus. And by lingering within in His presence he is being gradually transformed into the appearance of the Person he is beholding and reflecting.

As the Lord Spirit transforms the soul the expression of Christ, by degrees, is more and more manifested within that one's personality. The glory of God is in the face of Jesus Christ.

"Because the God who said; Out of darkness light shall shine, is the One who shined in our hearts to illuminate the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." ( 2 Cor. 4:6)

But Jehovah's Witnesses really love to reject the New Testament and live in the Old Testament economy. So they emphasize seeing God's face more literally.

Of course we who have come under Christ's redemption expect to eternally see God's face however Revelation means that.

"And they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads." (Rev. 22:4)

When we receive the Spirit of Christ by inviting Jesus to forgive us and enter forever into our hearts, we begin to be able to see the glory of God in the face of Christ deep within. Since transformation takes time, I encourage all to receive Jesus as soon as possible.

And I encourage all, beginning with myself, to turn our hearts to the Lord Jesus to see His face within. Whenever the heart turns to the Lord the intervening veil is taken away.

The turning of our heart to Jesus as a living Person is the removal of the obscuring veil, the covering making God not real or "seen" by us.


It is literally true that no flesh-and-blood organism could see Jehovah God and live. As a spirit creature Christ is “the image of the invisible God” and “the exact representation of his very being”, yet a partial revealment of his glory was so intensely brilliant that it blinded Saul of Tarsus, and sight returned only after a miracle of God.
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Paul lived. And John also lived though he feel at the Son of God's feet as dead.
Both were redeemed. It is God's redemption which preserves man in the encounter with the holiness of God.

Exactly when, this protective redemption takes place, may not [edited] be always easy to know. But Paul knew that he was seeing God. And God said to him "I am Jesus whom you persecute."

" And he [Saul of Tarsus] fell on the ground and heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?

And he said, Who are You, Lord? And He said, I am Jesus, whom you persecute." (Acts 9:4,5)

Paul was at some moment ( I cannot tell exactly when ) a redeemed man. In Old Testament terms we could say he was a brand plucked from the fire.

In Zechariah the filthy sinning priest Joshua was standing before "The Angel of Jehovah" . And there this Angel, this Sent One is interchangeable with Jehovah.

For that reason when the Angel of Jehovah spoke it says Jehovah said.

Defense Extended to Him

Verse 2 says, "And Jehovah said to Satan, Jehovah rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, Jehovah, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" Jehovah's word here indicates ... it indicates that Jehovah would do something for Joshua, since he was a brand plucked from the fire (Amos 4:11; Jude 23a).

As the Angel Of Jehovah rebuked Satan, He seemed to be saying, "Why have you come here to bother us? I know that you are accusing Joshua and opposing him. I know also that although he is the high priest of My people, he is not that good. He is a brand plucked from the fire, but he is in My hand. Satan, I rebuke you."

In Zechariah 3:1 and 2 we have three parties: Joshua, the Angel Of Jehovah, and Satan. In our Christian life, as God's chosen people we are always in this kind of situation. God is in front of us, and the evil one is at our right hand to resist us, to oppose us, to accuse us, and to be our adversary. This is a repetition of the scene in the garden of Eden described in Genesis 2, where God put the man He had created in front of two trees—one denoting God and the other denoting Satan. Zechariah 3 is also a repetition of Genesis 2.

[Life Study of Zechariah, by Witness Lee, Living Stream Ministry ]
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2400CEC6C4

Isaiah who saw God, Joshua who saw the Angel of Jehovah (Jehovah), and Saul of Tarsus, all were preserved as brands plucked from the fire of judgment. They were preserved by God's redemption.

Amos 4:11 shows God redemptive and preserving action of those otherwise worthy of divine judgment:

" I have overturned cities among you, As when God overturned Sodom and Gamorrah,

And you were like a brand plucked out of the burning. " (v.11a)

Robbie references James 1:17 which as far as I can see only says there is no shadow or variation of light in the shining of God.

"All good giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variation or shadow cast by turning." (James 1:17)

Robbie wrote this:

(Acts 9:1-18; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3, NW) A full view of “the Father of the celestial lights” would be more than human flesh could endure.—Jas. 1:17, NW.

Nothing in James 1:17 talks about the danger to man's flesh. Rather than danger to man there it speaks of "every perfect gift". Robbie is trying to change a verse about blessing into a verse about mortal danger.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] In Genesis 48:15-16 Jacob said at the end of his life, [b] “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, / The God who has shepherded me all my life to this day, / The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys.” The God before whom Abraham and Isaac walked and the God who shepherded Jacob all his life was the Angel who ...[text shortened]... iving Stream Ministry)

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0A1CCC9D8402[/b]

'The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia acknowledges that “ ‘trinity’ is a second-century term found nowhere in the Bible, and the Scriptures present no finished trinitarian statement” (1988, Vol. 4, “Trinity,” p. 914). It further states that “church fathers crystallized the doctrine in succeeding centuries”—long after the apostles had passed from the scene.'

Seems to this atheist that Trinitarians are searching for something in the bible that isn't there in its teachings, and is simply a later construct, - If God truly was 3 persons, why would the biblical message be so vague about this?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
'The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia acknowledges that “ ‘trinity’ is a second-century term found nowhere in the Bible, and the Scriptures present no finished trinitarian statement” (1988, Vol. 4, “Trinity,” p. 914). It further states that “church fathers crystallized the doctrine in succeeding centuries”—long after the apostles had passed ...[text shortened]... construct, - If God truly was 3 persons, why would the biblical message be so vague about this?

My initial take on this is because it's one of those things that we don't really need to understand fully. It's just like we're not given incontrovertible details about Christ's birth, because it's not as important as his death. In this case, the Resurrection is the whole message. Some of us may think Jesus was divine, others maybe not. But that He was the Son of God is not so much in dispute, and that God clearly, in plain text, sacrificed His own Son so that we might be saved by believing unto Him. This is also why there are so many denominations... the details aren't so important as the basic concept. As always, YMMV. 🙂

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
'The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia acknowledges that “ ‘trinity’ is a second-century term found nowhere in the Bible, and the Scriptures present no finished trinitarian statement” (1988, Vol. 4, “Trinity,” p. 914). It further states that “church fathers crystallized the doctrine in succeeding centuries”—long after the apostles had passed ...[text shortened]... construct, - If God truly was 3 persons, why would the biblical message be so vague about this?

yes indeed its entirely extra biblical, pagan in origin, was unknown to Christ and the apostles and relies for its efficacy on dubious translation of the original text and ignores a plethora of scriptures which refute it outright.

Originally posted by Suzianne
My initial take on this is because it's one of those things that we don't really [b]need to understand fully. It's just like we're not given incontrovertible details about Christ's birth, because it's not as important as his death. In this case, the Resurrection is the whole message. Some of us may think Jesus was divine, others maybe not. Bu ...[text shortened]... any denominations... the details aren't so important as the basic concept. As always, YMMV. 🙂[/b]

that explains practically nothing about the content of the Ghosts text,

its not there because its a mystery
its not there because we don't need to know
its not there BECAUSE ITS NOT A BIBLE TEACHING

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
that explains practically nothing about the content of the Ghosts text,

its not there because its a mystery
its not there because we don't need to know
its not there BECAUSE ITS NOT A BIBLE TEACHING

When i'm done with the Trinitarians non biblical beliefs sir, i'm coming after you...