31 Jan 15
Originally posted by sonshipThe water was part of the creation process, since the Holy Bible reveals that the world in the beginning was made out of the water. But at the time of Noah's flood the water was used to temporarily destroy it, because some angels had left their former state and corrupted man on earth.
Cont. from [b] The Life Study of Genesis by Witness Lee
[quote] b) The Heavens and the Earth Were Judged
The heavens and the earth surely were defiled by Satan's rebellion. God rebuked Satan, "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries" (Ezek. 28:18). So, the heavens and the earth were also judged by God. Job 9:5-7 says that God overturned the mountains in ...[text shortened]... ever, in the order of the Hebrew canon, Genesis comes first in order, as well it should.[/b]
There was no need to destroy the physical earth in the beginning because at that time the angels, being good spirit creatures, inhabited the spiritual heaven.
31 Jan 15
Originally posted by KellyJayYes.
This what you are referring to?
“Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7).
31 Jan 15
Originally posted by sonshipGod does have a place to dispose of Satan and his following demons. It is called "hell" and "the Lake of Fire and Brimstone."We know that from Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:5 there was a one day period consisting of an evening and a morning, so the time from the beginning until the earth was formless, void, and dark under the cover of water was probably less than 12 hours of that day.
[b] Exodus 20:11 , because it uses asah - "MADE" does [NOT] [ed ...[text shortened]... Eve.
You're saying that Eve was the first creature Satan deceived.
I don't believe that.[/b]
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Originally posted by RJHindsThe demons go to the lake of fire after the thousand year millennial kingdom, At the great white throne the demons go there.
God does have a place to dispose of Satan and his following demons. It is called "hell" and "the Lake of Fire and Brimstone."
Revelation 20:12-15
Even if you complain that "demons" is not clearly outlined in that passage, you still have to understand that the demons were EXPECTING to be tormented by Christ sometime in the future -
New American Standard Bible
And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
They were not in the lake of fire yet.
Now SOME of the more heinous offenders among angels and demons are particularly confined and being punished already. This is why demonic beings come OUT of the abyss in Revelation 9.
And some particularly MORE offensive fallen angels are in CHAINS or BONDS under punishment until the last judgment -
Second Peter 2:9
Holman Christian Standard Bible
then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
If you check your Bible you will see that Peter is using some fallen angels as the bases for this word. IE. "For if God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, they being kept for judgment" (2 Pet. 2:4)
So some fallen angels are not yet in the lake of fire.
Some are free to roam the heavenlies and the earth area and some are kept in gloomy pits being punished but awaiting their final destiny of the lake of fire.
Most probably, of the fallen angels who followed Satan, by the time of the end of the church age, are still not in the lake of fire. This is because Christ says that the eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. This implies that though it is prepared they have not yet gone there.
Matt. 25:41
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Then he will say also to those who are at his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed ones, into eternal fire, that which was prepared for The Devil and for his Angels.
The question we were examiniing is not where ULTIMATELY these beings will be disposed of. The issue was where were the bulk of them at the time Adam and Eve were in the garden.
Your theory is that God tossed the Devil down into the garden of Eden. In other words God used the newly made paradise where He placed Adam as a garbage disposal to eliminate Satan from a none material and wholly spiritual heaven.
Your theory also has to reason in that Eve must have been deceived FIRST before Satan deceived any of the angels (one third) of God. I don't believe Eve was the first creature to be deceived. Eve was the first HUMAN creature, with her husband, to be led astray to join Satan's opposition party.
Your rather general reply -
God does have a place to dispose of Satan and his following demons. It is called "hell" and "the Lake of Fire and Brimstone."
needs some further detail which I presented here.
01 Feb 15
3 edits
Originally posted by sonshipI stand by my general reply, but I never said Satan was tossed down to the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve. Satan or Lucifer and the angels were living in the spirit heaven at the time of the physical creation and Satan came down to tempt Eve of his own free will that God gave the Angels just as he gave us humans. 😏
The demons go to the lake of fire after the thousand year millennial kingdom, At the great white throne the demons go there.
[b]Revelation 20:12-15
Even if you complain that "demons" is not clearly outlined in that passage, you still have to understand that the demons were EXPECTING to be tormented by Christ sometime in the future -
[ ...[text shortened]... Lake of Fire and Brimstone."[/b]
needs some further detail which I presented here.[/b]
I don't see any evidence that there was a rebellion of any angels before the creation of the earth and of Adam and Eve.
[quote] while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? [/b]
(Job 38:7 NIV)
The creation of the earth was obviously welcomed by ALL the angels. Lucifer, a.k.a. Satan may not have been happy that man was give dominion over the earth instead of him, but that came later.
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Originally posted by RJHinds
I stand by my general reply, but I never said Satan was tossed down to the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve.
I did not say your theory means God tossed Satan down to tempt Eve.
It does imply to me that God disposed of Satan throwing him into the Garden of Eden.
Satan or Lucifer and the angels were living in the spirit heaven at the time of the physical creation and Satan came down to tempt Eve of his own free will that God gave the Angels just as he gave us humans.
If I understand what you're saying -
1.) Of all the angels only Satan alone was bad.
2.) Eve was deceived before any angels were deceived.
3.) After Eve and Adam were deceived one third of God's angels Satan deceived.
It appears that you teach human beings were following Satan before deceived and rebellious angels were following Satan.
The better view is that Satan, the evil angels and the demonic spirits were all deceived and formed the opposition party against God before Adam and Eve were seduced to join them.
I don't see any evidence that there was a rebellion of any angels before the creation of the earth and of Adam and Eve.
You don't take the evidence given. I take the evidence given.
As Rothram's Emphasized Bible footnotes Genesis 1:2 -
"Now the earth had become waste and wild, and darkness was on the face of the roaring deep, - but the Spirit of God was brooding on the face of the waters." (Emphasized Bible)
Heb. tohu wa-bohu, Evidently an idiomatic phrase, with a play on the sound ( "assonance" ). The two words occur together only in Isaiah 34:11 ; Jer. 4:23; examples which favour the conclusion that here also they describe the result of previous overthrow. Tohu by itself is found in several other texts [Deut. 32:10; Job 12:24; Psalm 102:40; Isa. 24:10; 34:11; etc.]
[ some of my type editing]
This is some of the evidence that you don't take and say you don't see any evidence.
A previous economy was overthrown in divine judgment rendering that world in a form in which the Hebrew is an expression something like - "helter skelter" or "topsy turvy" - Heb. toho va-bohu.
The Hebrew words used separately may not carry the implication of overthrow. The usage of them together did on two other places (Isaiah 34:11] ; Jer. 4:23) .
The creation of the earth was obviously welcomed by ALL the angels. Lucifer, a.k.a. Satan may not have been happy that man was give dominion over the earth instead of him, but that came later.
He was unhappy with it from the time he lost his high position, priestly position, and his sanctuaries which he defiled -
"By the abundance of your trading they filled your midst with violence, and you SINNED. So I cast you out as profane from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire." (Ezekiel 28:16)
Not a whisper of this is recounted about the Eden in which Adam and Eve were. So we understand that a previous realm under the Anointed Cherub's high office was judged.
Your theory holds that God created a being perfect in wisdom (Ezek. 28:15) from the moment he sprung into existence. Then a few 24 hour days latter you had a being arrogant enough to challenge God Himself, but first not before he picks off one single human couple. Then he deceived one third of the angels after he gained human cooperation.
I think in an unknown prior epoch Satan became what he was and was judged. Then God said "Let THEM ... have dominion". The "them" there being a being man [edited] instead of the angel - the man made of dust whom God would become latter in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.
02 Feb 15
Originally posted by sonshipSatan was not kicked out of heaven before Adam or before Job because he was still able to come before God in heaven along with the other angels during the time of Job. So I am certainly not saying God disposed of Satan by throwing him into the Garden of Eden.I stand by my general reply, but I never said Satan was tossed down to the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve.
I did not say your theory means God tossed Satan down to tempt Eve.
It does imply to me that God disposed of Satan throwing him into the Garden of Eden.
[quote]
Satan or Lucifer and the angels were living in the spirit heaven ...[text shortened]... he angel - the man made of dust whom God would become latter in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."...
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."...
(Job 1:6-7; 2:1-3 NASB)
Yes, I do believe Satan deceived Eve before any of the other angels were deceived.
I do not believe your view is the better view because your view contradicts the clear word of scripture. All your speculation on this is nonsense to me. 😏
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Originally posted by RJHinds
Satan was not kicked out of heaven before Adam or before Job because he was still able to come before God in heaven along with the other angels during the time of Job.
But he comes as a jobless, fired, disinherited, renegade only causing trouble in God's earth and slandering God.
In that sense he is "kicked out". This could be compared to a fired employee who is disgruntled and still comes around to the old place of employment to bad mouth his former authority whom he was under.
Yes, you are right because in Job Satan still comes with the other angelic "sons of God". He is not restricted to the earth. He will be restricted to the earth 1,260 days before the end of this present age. Then he has a SHORT TIME and he pulls out all his evil imaginable to do the worst he can in the short time that he has.
So I am certainly not saying God disposed of Satan by throwing him into the Garden of Eden.
Then you are saying Satan is not expelled yet at all because he goes back and forth. And in Genesis 4 he just happened to be on the earth.
I can agree with you on that freedom he yet has. But he is expelled from the glory and position he once had. His words to Eve implies that he knows what death is.
"You will not surely die ..."
But if that is not the case and no one knows what death is except God it doesn't make as much sense to me. Where were the DEAD that Satan knew about ?
They were the demons. Separated from their bodies they CRAVE to have bodies again. They find likely possibilities in the bodies of sinful human beings.
Some say "Why be so complicated? Just make the demons angels and we don't have to be so complicated."
Then someday it is pointed out that the Bible draws a distinction between spirits and angels -
Acts 23:9
New American Standard Bible
And there occurred a great uproar; and some of the scribes of the Pharisaic party stood up and began to argue heatedly, saying, "We find nothing wrong with this man; suppose a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"
Romans 5:12 says "thus death passed to all men ...".
Some beings not human died furnishing Satan with some familiarity with death and rendering some of the hordes following Satan besides the evil angels the disembodied evil spirits, the demons.
I believe all these non-human hordes were amassed before God created man.
But I have opened a thread on The Passover as Picture meaning a picture of Christ's Person as the Redeemer and salvation. If you think anything regarding Christ's Redemption suffers there because I say I don't know how old the universe is, you point it out to me please.
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."...
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."...
(Job 1:6-7; 2:1-3 NASB)
Job is the oldest book in the Bible. And perhaps Moses didn't explicitly mentioned a contest between God and Satan because Job as a book of revelation, had already exposed that relationship.
The fact of the two trees in the garden - the tree of life verses the tree of the knowledge of good and evil indicates a kind of controversy in the universe between God and Satan. Man is in the middle and must tip the balance of the scales one way or the other - taking Satan as his "food" or taking God as his "food." .
It is similar to the book of Job and the contest there.
Anyway I am convinced we both want our hearers to believe in the Son of God. When my listeners say they have to have a million years I say I don't see the Bible forbidding you more time since the beginning.
You also want people to believe in the Son of God. But they have to give up a belief in any more time than Bishop Ussher calculates to the beginning.
As long as they believe Jesus is the Son of God, I think to that extent we are one in our service to the Gospel.
Yes, I do believe Satan deceived Eve before any of the other angels were deceived.
Okay. I don't.
I do not believe your view is the better view because your view contradicts the clear word of scripture.
That's kind of rhetorical talk, I think.
02 Feb 15
Originally posted by sonshipWell, I don't agree with your speculations. I shall continue to agree with the clear word of scripture as written. 😏Satan was not kicked out of heaven before Adam or before Job because he was still able to come before God in heaven along with the other angels during the time of Job.
But he comes as a jobless, fired, disinherited, renegade only causing trouble in God's earth and slandering God.
In that sense he is "kicked out". This could be com ...[text shortened]... w contradicts the clear word of scripture. [/quote]
That's kind of rhetorical talk, I think.
Originally posted by sonship"The Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms were concerning Christ. He was central to the Old Testament."
only the new testament. with some hints that he is coming in the old. so he is not even the center of a half of the bible.
No, He's the center of the whole Bible.
What does [b]Luke 24:25-27 say ?
After His resurrection, to the despondent disciples who thought He was dead and gone -
"And beginning from Moses and from ...[text shortened]... re written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
[/quote]
that's why he revoked almost all laws from the OT? because he was such central figure?
the OT is a gruesome collection of genocide, patricide, infanticide, rape, pedophilia, slavery or just simple unfairness (poor job comes to mind). because jesus was NOT a part of it is one of the main reasons he came. in order to set humanity straight.
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02 Feb 15
Originally posted by ZahlanziHe did not revoke. He fulfilled.
"The Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms were concerning Christ. He was central to the Old Testament."
that's why he revoked almost all laws from the OT? because he was such central figure?
All of the offerings pointed to Christ.
He came to fulfill.
The Old Testament in this sense was the picture and Jesus in the New Testament is the caption underneath the picture.
02 Feb 15
Originally posted by sonship"He did not revoke. He fulfilled."
He did not revoke. He fulfilled.
All of the offerings pointed to Christ.
He came to fulfill.
The Old Testament in this sense was the picture and Jesus in the New Testament is the caption underneath the picture.
he revoked. there was some horrible crap, like stonings and "eye for an eye", for idiotic charges, which he revoked.
that's why we no longer stone little girls for not being virgins on their wedding night, that's why we no longer sell our daughters into slavery.
(well, correction, that's why fundamentalist christians don't do that. normal people abstain from that because it is horrible and we know better)