Genesis 1:1-2

Originally posted by RJHinds
Yes, but the Antichrist at the end of this age has not yet come. This is not referring to before the earth was made or the Garden of Eden was planted on the land. You seem to be trying to make up another story so you can fit your millions of years of evolutionary theory of death and destruction.

The time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is within the 24 hour ...[text shortened]... you would read on. So it is only an unknown time of a few hours at most, not millions of years.

The more one follows the YEC theology the fuzzier one gets about the church's enemy. In order to promote Ussher's chronology you take the devil who has been made naked by the prophetic past visions of Ezekiel and Isaiah and you try to hammer them into your six days.

The result is that the one who should be exposed is concealed by obfuscation. This is a price you pay for clingling to Ussher's theories.

But I have to go now and cannot give more time at the moment.

Originally posted by sonship
The more one follows the YEC theology the fuzzier one gets about the church's enemy. In order to promote Ussher's chronology you take the devil who has been made naked by the prophetic past visions of Ezekiel and Isaiah and you try to hammer them into your six days.

The result is that the one who should be exposed is concealed by obfuscation. This is a ...[text shortened]... lingling to Ussher's theories.

But I have to go now and cannot give more time at the moment.

I am not taking the prophetic visions of Ezekiel and Isaiah and trying to hammer them into the six days of creation. I am leaving them where they belong, after the six days of creation.

I am not promoting Bishop Ussher's chronology exclusively. Others have calculated times slightly different, but they also amount to about 6,000 years of human history from Adam to the present.

Originally posted by RJHinds

am not taking the prophetic visions of Ezekiel and Isaiah and trying to hammer them into the six days of creation. I am leaving them where they belong, after the six days of creation.

In other words you are probably assuming a gap in time within which Lucifer rebelled somewhere before chapter 3. This gap you probably surmise is after the six days and before the temptation of Eve in Genesis 3..

Some YEC surmise that it could have been as much as 100 years after the sixth day until Eve was tempted in chapter 3. Kent Hovind told me this over the phone around 1993 when we had a conversation about Genesis.

Rather than invent a gap to account for Satan's fall (Ezek. 28; Isaiah 14) it is better to leave it where it appears to be in the Bible in the first place. That is within the undefined time period between verse 1 and verse 2 of chapter 1.

To protect Ussher's chronology as a tool to calculate the age of the universe, many take that interval outfrom between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 and place it somewhere else of their invention.

I advise them to leave the gap of unknown time-span where the Bible has it as the most likely and logical place.

I am not promoting Bishop Ussher's chronology exclusively. Others have calculated times slightly different, but they also amount to about 6,000 years of human history from Adam to the present.

Human history is one matter.
The creation of the univese is a distinctly different matter.

Perhaps it just cannot sit right with some people that there could be a universe WITHOUT human beings. By insisting that while the universe IS man MUST be too skepticism about rolling ages without human beings is rejected by them.

They assume that such ages without humans in existence devalues the importance of humans. But the way some of us see God's sovereignty to ALLOW Lucifier's failed program to ferment and run its course all the more elevates the importance of man.

You link evolution necessarily with ages of the universe without MAN. That's your prerogative. But I believe in a FIRST man and a FIRST woman. And though unknown time may elongate the age of creation, we do not blur the clear distinction between MAN and any other living things. Adam was the first man, period.

Romans 5 we uphold.

Originally posted by sonship

am not taking the prophetic visions of Ezekiel and Isaiah and trying to hammer them into the six days of creation. I am leaving them where they belong, after the six days of creation.

In other words you are probably assuming a gap in time within which Lucifer rebelled somewhere before chapter 3. This gap you probably surmise is [ ...[text shortened]... tween MAN and any other living things. Adam was the first man, period.

Romans 5 we uphold.

No, I am not assuming a gap. You are the one that keeps assuming a gap. There is no million or billion year gap, so Let It Go.

YouTube

Originally posted by RJHinds
No, I am not assuming a gap. You are the one that keeps assuming a gap. There is no million or billion year gap, so Let It Go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk

Let Genesis 1:1,2 go? No thanks.
Let Ezekiel 28:12-17 go? No thanks.
Let Isaiah 14:12-15 go? No thanks.

Let Duane Gish, Henry Morris, Ken Ham, Ussher's strict chronology of the universe's age go? I did already decades ago. Never thought to pick it up again, thankyou.

Trade ya - YouTube

Originally posted by RJHinds
No, I am not assuming a gap. You are the one that keeps assuming a gap. There is no million or billion year gap, so Let It Go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk

Huh?

A Disney movie ?

That and the Super Bowl are really persuasive.

Originally posted by sonship
Huh?

A Disney movie ?

That and the Super Bowl are really persuasive.

I just threw that at you to lighten things up. However, if you wish to remain serious, then allow me the critique your video and Chuch Missier's speculation.

He seems to be concerned about the first word of Genesis 1:2 as making some drastic difference in meaning, if instead of being "And" from the Hebrew translation it might be "But" as from the Septuagint Greek translation. He claims the Greek language is more precise than the Hebrew. However, he stops there and does not give the rest of the translation from the Greek. Why is that?

I think I know. I just so happen to have a Septuagint verison of the Old Testament in Greek with an English translation. Here is the whole translation in English:

In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth. But the earth was unsightly and unfinished, and darkness was over the water.

Genesis 1:1-2

Notice that the earth is unfinished in the Greek Septuagint version. That is just what I have been telling you. 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds

Genesis 1:1-2

Notice that the earth is unfinished in the Greek Septuagint version. That is just what I have been telling you.

If the earth was damaged in judgment it would also be unprepared or unfinished for man. So any emphasis on the making of a tohu wa-bohu waste and voided earth, would not of itself negate previous divine overthrow.

The other two biblical usages of the expression in Isaiah 34:11 and Jeremiah 4:23-27 also could be taken, along with divine destruction, to mean something positive has to happen to make the scene suitable for man's living.

Isaiah 34:11 - "He shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones - or (plummet) of emptiness."

This is God carefully measuring out the amount of devastation to the place being judged. Of course if the place judged should not be recovered but remain in that state it would be unfinished for suitable re-habitation.

Jeremiah 4:23 - " I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Of course if such a judgment LEFT the place judged in such a state we could say it was not finished in its suitability for re-habitation.

Fuerst, a Hebrew language translator, gives "ruin" or "desoluation" as the more proper sense of the noun rendered by some "without form".

The second word is admissible as "emptiness" or "that which is empty" . The two words used together to form this play on the sound are definitely indicative of divine overthrow in punishing destruction.

And you can see in Isaiah 34:11 God is exacting, definite, precise deliberate in His destruction of the evil place. In this case the fall of Idumea.

"He shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, the plummet of emptiness."

God is measuring out the precise amount of calamity and destruction as if measuring for a building.

We believe the earth seen as tohu wa-bohu similarly indicates not just a work in progress, not quite ready or unfinished, but if so because God has destroyed what was created there before.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Kelly, here are a few paragraphs from a recent thread which focus on Genesis 1:1 [Chaos Gap] Genesis 1:2. Hope it helps.

"Before time and the universe existed, the eternal triune God who has no beginning or end chose to create a large host of rational angelic creatures who would reside with Him. Colossians 1:16-17 (New American Standard Bible) 6 "For ...[text shortened]... s trial, sentence, appeal and the role of human volition.
(Page 4) Thread 161838

Thank you for the time you took putting this together, I've gone over this
material quite a few times trust me. 🙂 Will again too I suppose.

Originally posted by sonship

Genesis 1:1-2

Notice that the earth is unfinished in the Greek Septuagint version. That is just what I have been telling you.

If the earth was damaged in judgment it would also be unprepared or unfinished for man. So any emphasis on the making of a [b]tohu wa-bohu waste and voided earth, would not of itself negate previous divine ...[text shortened]... ot quite ready or unfinished, but if so because God has destroyed what was created there before.[/b]

I believe that speculation is pure nonsense, but if you are determined that you want to believe it, then I will bow out of the debate and allow you to continue your delusion while I take a more sensible stance. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe that speculation is pure nonsense, but if you are determined that you want to believe it, then I will bow out of the debate and allow you to continue your delusion while I take a more sensible stance. 😏

Bow out, I think is probably a good choice for you RJ. You really leave many points not too well replied to.

Originally posted by sonship
God's creation is fully covered in chapter 1, verse 1. [b] "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Satan's rebellion is not covered in too much detail in Genesis as it is in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. But it is briefly indicated in the first half of verse 2.

"And the earth became waste and empty; and darkness was upon th ...[text shortened]... with it some symbolism of God's salvation in Christ to save people from sin, darkness and death.

I have not really been looking at this thread much mainly because I got a lot
of this in my real life. I will say you sent red flags up for me with this post
in you did two things, first being you did not give translation of scripture you
were using to prove your point, and 2nd you keyed everything off of just one
word in this case "became".

I could not find a translation that said it like you quoted, so if you would
please share it. What I did find were several and none of them were even
close to yours except one maybe and that would be a big stretch.

Here is what I saw on those I looked at:


Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1 American Standard Version (ASV)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1 Amplified Bible (AMP)
1 In the beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

Genesis 1 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Parashah 1: B’resheet (In the beginning) 1:1–6:8
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water.

Genesis 1 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
The First Book of Moses, called [a]Genesis
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the waters.

Genesis 1 New International Version (NIV)
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Genesis 1 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --
2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Bereshis 1 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
1 In the beginning Elohim created hashomayim (the heavens, Himel) and haaretz (the earth).
2 And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and void); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I have not really been looking at this thread much mainly because I got a lot
of this in my real life. I will say you sent red flags up for me with this post
in you did two things, first being you did not give translation of scripture you
were using to prove your point, and 2nd you keyed everything off of just one
word in this case "became".

I could ...[text shortened]... ss was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters.

I noticed that I left out ...And the Spirit of God moved over the water. in the Greek septuagint version in English of Genesis 1:1-2 that I quoted to sonship. That is probably because I was concentrating on the sentence just before that in which the earth is not yet finished for habitation.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I noticed that I left out [b]...And the Spirit of God moved over the water. in the Greek septuagint version in English of Genesis 1:1-2 that I quoted to sonship. That is probably because I was concentrating on the sentence just before that in which the earth is not yet finished for habitation.[/b]

For me this is a debate with little importance in that no one is going to go
to Hell because they think something happen between verses 1 and 2 in
Genesis, or not, at least I don't think that is the case. If there was a lot of
time then okay, if not okay, neither point of view changes the fact I'm a
sinner in need of God's grace and mercy through Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by KellyJay
For me this is a debate with little importance in that no one is going to go
to Hell because they think something happen between verses 1 and 2 in
Genesis, or not, at least I don't think that is the case. If there was a lot of
time then okay, if not okay, neither point of view changes the fact I'm a
sinner in need of God's grace and mercy through Jesus Christ.

I don't disagree. However, I also believe it is important to seek the truth and try to prevent others from being deceived. But not much can be done for those that are willingly ignorant.