Genesis 1:1-2

Originally posted by Zahlanzi

I take it that you're one more Richard Dawkins wannabe.

I don't think I'll play wacka-mole with a foaming at the mouth troll this morning.

Originally posted by sonship
I take it that you're one more Richard Dawkins wannabe.

I don't think I'll play wacka-mole with a foaming at the mouth troll this morning.

i am confused. do you believe stoning little girls is bad or good?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i am confused. do you believe stoning little girls is bad or good?

Don't be confused. I said I don't think I will play whack-a-mole with the wild accusations you have lined up this morning.

Originally posted by RJHinds

The water was part of the creation process, since the Holy Bible reveals that the world in the beginning was made out of the water.

Though it was utilized in the making process it still could indicate something negative.

In the conclusion of the Bible "the sea was no more" .

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more." (Rev. 21:1)

So while the sea has some usefulness to God and man in this epoch, it could also be a remnant of something God wants no trace of which to be remembered.

Some of us see a parallel between Death and Hades being done away (Rev. 20:13) and the sea being "no more" (21:1) when all of God's salvation work is completed.

Something useful to God in providing for man in this epoch could also be a remnant of a former time God wants no trace of which to remain.

But at the time of Noah's flood the water was used to temporarily destroy it, because some angels had left their former state and corrupted man on earth.

It is true that some particularly more heinous crimes had been committed by some of the angels. But the idea that Eve was the first example of a follower of Satan and then the hordes of angels followed Satan after Eve is a teaching I have never heard anywhere.

You'd be the first I know, at least, to suggest such a thing.

If the good angels saw that following Satan only ended in Adam and Eve being subjected to curse, excluded from the glory and holiness of the righteous God, they would not be so deceived. They would have seen that Lucifer's promises came out to be LIES.

They followed Lucifer because they believed in his promises. And this they were duped by before the creation of man.

Satan probably projected his own delusions to the other angels.

"You could be MORE. God is holding you back. If you follow me, Lucifer, I'll see to it that you reach your full potential. This God, the Creator God is holding us all back. I will give you a better existence. Follow me to usurp the government of God."

These are the kinds of lies these intelligent beings heard most likely. One third of the angels of God were so deceived.

Rather than imagine that Adam and Eve led the pack of Satanically deceived creatures, they were preceded by angels and creatures who became demons.

There was no need to destroy the physical earth in the beginning because at that time the angels, being good spirit creatures, inhabited the spiritual heaven.

No. The atmosphere of the earth was already filled with evil spirits. What was "very good" was that Adam and Eve as man were now assigned to have dominion rather than the former rebels.

Psalm 8 is a Psalm about the creation of man. In that Psalm David says that even the little ones, the little human beings born had a purpose to "stop the adversaries and still the AVENGER".

The AVENGER is Satan who was seething with hatred to get REVENGE on God for the crushing defeat he experienced and the loss of all his realm and authority when he was good, and became a sinner.

" O Jehovah our Lord, How excellent is your name in all the earth, You have set Your glory over the heavens!

Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings You have established strength because of your ADVERSARIES, to stop the enemy and the AVENGER." (Psalm 8:1,2)

Satan was the ENEMY when God created man. And Satan's hosts were the ADVERSARIES following Satan. God created man to still the enemyan stop the avenger from getting revenge upon God.

God would not completely deal with this enemy unilaterally alone. God would create man another creature to assist Him. This is not because God is weak. It is because God would use CREATURE to defeat CREATURE and vindicate God the Creator's will.

So even the baby human beings God created to establish His praise and to coordinate with God to still the avenger.

Adam failed in his mandate and joined the enemy. The last Adam, the "second man" did not fail.

Originally posted by sonship

The water was part of the creation process, since the Holy Bible reveals that the world in the beginning was made out of the water.

Though it was utilized in the [b]making process it still could indicate something negative.

In the conclusion of the Bible "the sea was no more" .

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth ...[text shortened]... ailed in his mandate and joined the enemy. The last Adam, the [b]"second man" did not fail.[/b]

I believe if you could discard all this indoctrination about evolution and billions of years of past history, you would be able to better understand the simple truth in the Holy Bible.

It is easy for me to believe that some of the angels may have been deceived to believe Satan when Adam and Eve did not die immediately but lived on hundreds of years. Some could have easily believed these restrictions not to eat off a particular tree was unfair to the humans and the punishments for doing so were cruel and unjust. Sonhouse is always saying he would not follow an evil god like that in the bible. So why wouldn't some of the angels be deceived too?

By the way, all those other references occur after the fall of man. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds

I believe if you could discard all this indoctrination about evolution and billions of years of past history, you would be able to better understand the simple truth in the Holy Bible.

How many times do I mention the word "billions" compared to you? You're the one who is fond of mentioning "billions" in these talks.

I may have mentioned it. But unknown is unknown. [Job] records God saying many times to Job - "Where were YOU ... when I did " this or that. The rhetorical answer is "I did not even exist".

To say we do not know when God created the heavens and the earth is to take up Job's reply. WE WERE NOT THERE. We don't know.

Where were you RJ ?

It is easy for me to believe that some of the angels may have been deceived to believe Satan when Adam and Eve did not die immediately but lived on hundreds of years.

Physcially they lived for hundreds of years more, and then they physically died. You want to believe that Eve and Adam were deceived first. And then after Adam and Eve Satan THEN went after deceiving the angels?

Or that scenario with some caveats? It would be the first time I ever heard anyone propose that. It can be considered along with any reasonable interpretation. I mean no disrespect.

By the way, all those other references occur after the fall of man.

If you are refering to Psalm 8 it is true that this was written AFTER the fall of man. But it was written concerning the CREATION of all things including man.

It is a Psalm about God's creating of man and his unusual place in the universe -

"When I see Your heavens, the works of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained, What is man that you are mindful of him?

You made him a little lower than the angels and have crowned him with glory and honor.

For you have caused him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet: " (See Genesis 1:26,27; Genesis 2:18-20))

This Psalm of David is a musing under the inspiration of the Spirit of God about creation and man placed in it. And in these musings MAN is created to still the adversaries and the avenger.

Now when we come to the quotation of this passage in the book of Hebrews the writer indicates that the first man fell short of this appointment - "But we see JESUS ...".

In other words - Where Adam failed God, Jesus the Son of God has fulfilled what God mean by MAN.

I agree that the writing is after the fall of man. But the Psalm concerns the WHYs of the creation of human beings. God had some adversaries. God had an AVENGER who sought revenge. The image and dominion of man was to still the enemy and the avenger.

Let's see a few translations of Psalm 8:2.

New International Version
Through the praise of children and infants you have established a stronghold against your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger.

New Living Translation
You have taught children and infants to tell of your strength, silencing your enemies and all who oppose you.

English Standard Version
Out of the mouth of babies and infants, you have established strength because of your foes, to still the enemy and the avenger.

New American Standard Bible
From the mouth of infants and nursing babes You have established strength Because of Your adversaries, To make the enemy and the revengeful cease.

King James Bible
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Because of Your adversaries, You have established a stronghold from the mouths of children and nursing infants to silence the enemy and the avenger.

I think you should take this as a inspired writing that man created in the image of God and according to the likeness of God and committed with the dominion over God's works had a built in purpose to put down God's enemies. He already had some.

Adam was seduced and JOINED the opposition party.
Jesus came to fully express God and reign for God for He is God-man.
He is the Lord and also the last Adam who became a life giving Spirit to enter into us to make us His mystical body to finish God's program to still the adversaries and the avenger.

Originally posted by sonship

I believe if you could discard all this indoctrination about evolution and billions of years of past history, you would be able to better understand the simple truth in the Holy Bible.

How many times do I mention the word "billions" compared to you? You're the one who is fond of mentioning "billions" in these talks.

I may have men ...[text shortened]... s to make us His mystical body to finish God's program to still the adversaries and the avenger.

There are probably a lot of true things that you have never heard of. So what?

Originally posted by RJHinds
There are probably a lot of true things that you have never heard of. So what?

Sure. But not everything I haven't heard yet is true.

Any other pre-Geology, pre-Evolution thinkers consider a preadamic judgment blamed on fallen angels?

Origen did who lived from about 186 to 254 AD. Some words on Genesis 1:1 written in De Principiis -

"It is certain that the present firmament is not spoken of in this verse, nor the present dry land, but rather that heaven and earth from which this present heaven and earth that we now see afterwards borrowed their names."

The English poet Caedmon died about 680 AD is attributed with poetry about fallen angels being to blame for the destruction of a preadamic world. And he wrote of human beings being created by God to replace angels whose conduct called for the ruination of that world.

Some say Caedmon didn't write those poems. Yet it little matters who first wrote. Someone around that time did. This is the 7th century and it is doubtful that 19th century theories of Geology or Evolution caused them to want to accommodate Scripture to big time suggested by science.

The poems were published by one Francis Junius in 1665. The manuscripts reside as far as I know, still in the Bodleian Library in Oxford.

None of this information proves an unknown interval of time between Genesis 1:1 and 2. It does demonstrate it was an old interpretation. Chalmers is usually faulted by some Young Earth anti Gap Theory theologians as having invented the view.

Another expositor. Hugo St. Victor (1097 - 1141) a Flemish scholar left us these words translated below -

"Perhaps enough has already been debated about these matters thus far, if we add only this, 'how long did the world remain in this disorder before the regular re-ordering (dispositio) of it was taken in hand? For the fact that the first substance of all things arose at the very beginning of time - or rather, with time itself - is settled by the statement that, 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth'. But how long it continued in this state of confusion, Scripture does not clearly show".

I agree with this exposition given in the 11th/12th century. Charles Darwin wasn't even a twinkle in his great great grandmother's eye yet.

Originally posted by sonship
Any other pre-Geology, pre-Evolution thinkers consider a preadamic judgment blamed on fallen angels?

Origen did who lived from about 186 to 254 AD. Some words on [b]Genesis 1:1 written in De Principiis -

[quote] "It is certain that the present firmament is not spoken of in this verse, nor the present dry land, but rather that heaven and ...[text shortened]... 1th/12th century. Charles Darwin wasn't even a twinkle in his great great grandmother's eye yet.[/b]

Satan has deceived many people over the years. However, the clear word of scripture stands in opposition to a preadamic judgment because of fallen angels.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Satan has deceived many people over the years. However, the clear word of scripture stands in opposition to a preadamic judgment because of fallen angels.

We disagree. The "clear word of Scripture" is more favorable to Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 being something that predates the garden of Eden in Genesis 3.

We disagree there. Nothing in the account of what happened in Eden with Adam in Genesis 3 corresponds to the tumultuous expulsion of a glorious Anointed Cherub in Ezekiel's Eden in Ezekiel chapter 28.

All your appeal to "the clear" and "the obvious" or other ways you have of saying the young earth viewpoint, lack the in depth analysis of the things revealed in the whole plenary revelation of the Bible.

The beings that come out of the abyss in Revelation 9 at the fifth trumpet - when were they created during the six days ?

Originally posted by sonship
We disagree. The "clear word of Scripture" is more favorable to Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 being something that predates the garden of Eden in Genesis 3.

We disagree there. Nothing in the account of what happened in Eden with Adam in Genesis 3 corresponds to the tumultuous expulsion of a glorious Anointed Cherub in Ezekiel's [b] Eden in Ezekiel chapt ...[text shortened]... of the abyss in Revelation 9 at the fifth trumpet - when were they created during the six days ?[/b]

You must remember that Ezekiel and Isaiah were prophets of God. They foretold of judgments to come. So you need to look at these scriptures from the correct point of view.

You keep trying to fit millions of years in the scriptures to conform to the evolutionists point of view that has been inspired by Satan to deceive the whole world.

Here is an example of a vision of a prophecy to come. It had not happened even though it is spoken of as being in the past.

And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

(Revelation 12:7-12 NASB)

This wrath of Satan on the earth is the great tribulation that is yet to come when the defeated Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven.

Originally posted by sonship
Don't be confused. I said I don't think I will play whack-a-mole with the wild accusations you have lined up this morning.

is that a "yes, i condone stoning little girls" or "no, i don't condone stoning little girls and it is horrible the bible did at one point"?

Originally posted by RJHinds

You must remember that Ezekiel and Isaiah were prophets of God. They foretold of judgments to come. So you need to look at these scriptures from the correct point of view.

Yes, these prophets foretold the future. But there are two instances of what as been called "the prophetic past". The veil to past history of Satan is prophetically revealed in those two passages.

That is as God is speaking the prophets to a contemporary despot of their time, the curtain on the history of the UNIQUE despot of all earthly despots - Satan, exposed.

Ezekiel 28 about the Anointed Cherub and Isaiah 14 about the Daystar (Lucifer) were instances of the prophets speaking in "the prophetic past."

In Ezekiel we first see a lamentation for "the prince of Tyre". Then suddenly it changes to a lamentation about not the prince but "the king of Tyre." The things spoken concerning the [b]"prince" are readily applicable to a human figure. The things that begin to be spoken about "the KING of Tyre" - many of which could only be said of a super human figure.

Having said that, it is possible that some things toward the end are applicable to the Antichrist at the end of this age, since he is the practical human embodiment of Satan.

You keep trying to fit millions of years in the scriptures to conform to the evolutionists point of view that has been inspired by Satan to deceive the whole world.

Actually, I keep saying that the amount of time between verse 1 and verse 2 is [/b]UNKNOWN[/b]. It allows for some unknown length of time.

Here is an example of a vision of a prophecy to come. It had not happened even though it is spoken of as being in the past.

I'll comment perhaps latter on Revelation 12.

Originally posted by sonship

You must remember that Ezekiel and Isaiah were prophets of God. They foretold of judgments to come. So you need to look at these scriptures from the correct point of view.

Yes, these prophets foretold the future. But there are two instances of what as been called "the prophetic past". The veil to past history of Satan is prophetically r ...[text shortened]... t is spoken of as being in the past. [/quote]

I'll comment perhaps latter on Revelation 12.

Yes, but the Antichrist at the end of this age has not yet come. This is not referring to before the earth was made or the Garden of Eden was planted on the land. You seem to be trying to make up another story so you can fit your millions of years of evolutionary theory of death and destruction.

The time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is within the 24 hours of the first day if you would read on. So it is only an unknown time of a few hours at most, not millions of years.