06 Mar 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne======================================
Has it ever occurred to you that if concepts such as "positional sanctification and a dispositional sanctification" were important to the teachings of Jesus, He would have given clear and explicit explanations as well as made explicit distinctions between them? If He did, I am unaware of such passage(s). If you know of any, please produce them. So far ...[text shortened]... e men rather than the teachings of Jesus, then at least admit that that is what you are doing.[/b]
Has it ever occurred to you that if concepts such as "positional sanctification and a dispositional sanctification" were important to the teachings of Jesus, He would have given clear and explicit explanations as well as made explicit distinctions between them?
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He did.
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If He did, I am unaware of such passage(s).
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I think that is a better attitude. And I think you have a serious probem of distrust of some of the Lord's apostles.
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If you know of any, please produce them. So far as I can tell, they are the product of men who came after Jesus. If you choose to follow the teachings of those men rather than the teachings of Jesus, then at least admit that that is what you are doing.
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First, let's notice that you STILL do not expose your position on the resurrection of Christ. I think you do because you find it very difficult to blame the teaching of the resurrection of Christ on others. I think you at least realize that you cannot so easily dismiss the resurrection as some less informed disciples after Jesus.
You think you can do that on the matter of sanctification. You have taken the more difficult road of inventing "another Jesus." Hard isn't it ?
I will not produce the phrases "positional sanctification" or "dispositional sanctification" from the New Testament text. These phrases are very useful to help explain some diverse statements in the NT on sanctification.
Matthew 23:16-19 - "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, Whoeer swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound.
Fools and blind men, which is greater, the gold or the temple which sanctifies the gold ?
and, Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift which is upon it, he is bound.
Blind men, which is greater, the gift or the altar which sanctifies the gift."
In this teaching both the gold and the gift are made holy because of the position they are in. The gold and the gift were common if simply in the market place. When the gold is built into the temple, its position has rendered it holy before God and man. The temple has sanctified the gold. The same is true with the gift. The gift's position upon the altar has changed it from a common state to a holy state, a sanctified state.
The promise of the Gospel was that Jesus would baptize His disciples in the Holy Spirit (John 1:33). He told them to receive the Holy Spirit (John 20:22). They were all filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:5). They would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). The apostles and prophets are called holy. And to be a saint is to be holy. And all who call upon the name of Jesus in faith are made holy (1 Cor. 1:2).
This is a holiness of position. By virtue of their standing in Christ they have changed from a common position to a consecrated one as holy people in Christ with the Holy Spirit.
Yet sanctification is also taught as a process. Their disposition needs to be transformed by the working of God's nature into them. So Jesus says asks His Father to sanctify the saved in truth. This is a PROCESS - "I in them, and You in Me that they may be PERFECTED into one ..." (John 17:23)
The ongoing growth is a PERFECTING that Christ prays for. They are holy in thier position, in Christ. They need to be sanctified in the on going process to be perfected into oneness with the Triune God.
"Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth" (17:17)
It should be remembered that Jesus has said to these disciples - "You have ALREADY been made clean because of the word which I have spoken to you." (15:3)
They are in a consecreated, set apart, holy, and clean position simply by their having believed the Lord's word. Yet He prays to the Father to sanctify them in the truth, which evidently is a PROCESS to cause them to arrive at a oneness with one another and with the Triune God.
Therefore we may speak of a positional sanctification and a dispositional sanctification in the teaching of Christ.
And the book of Romans faithfully develops these two aspects of total sanctification by our experienced and faithful brother Paul.
06 Mar 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSeeing as you've made a half-dozen or so posts without citing any passages that do so, it's hard to believe otherwise.
[quote][b]The fact is that no human being is perfect and all are flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behaviour. The real Jesus is much more patient with us than this and has immense compassion for our failings.
If this was so important to the teachings of Jesus, you should have no problem producing passages from when He walked the Earth and ta ...[text shortened]... ckle the second assertion. Or you can simply admit that you know of no such passages.[/b]
--------------------ToONE----------------
Not true.
I have talked about what Jesus said at the last supper and what he said when describing the Lord's Prayer to his followers.
Do you feel that I actually have to cut and paste the passages so that you know what he said?
I spent countless posts quoting such passages a while back and you showed no interest in them , and now you suddenly want quoted passages from me?
This tells me that you are not really interested in these passages , you just want to play games again.
The question I would like to raise is why on earth you would think that Jesus is not compassionate and patient with us. Surely , he would have been the most understanding and gentle of human beings ever , full of insight into human failings. Why would he be anything less?
"To understand is to forgive"
08 Mar 10
Originally posted by jaywillC'mon jaywill. All you've done is take verses (not all said by Jesus) and cobbled them together. It's like taking a picture of a landscape, cutting out a couple boulders, a few tree trunks, a couple of branches, etc. pieced them together and then proclaiming that the picture is of an elephant.
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Has it ever occurred to you that if concepts such as "positional sanctification and a dispositional sanctification" were important to the teachings of Jesus, He would have given clear and explicit explanations as well as made explicit distinctions between them?
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...[text shortened]... ects of total sanctification by our experienced and faithful brother Paul.[/b]
What's more, you've also ignored what Jesus was teaching. For example, the text from Matthew 23 was taken from a passage that is an explanation of hypocrisy. Note the following which is an apt description of the condition of Christians who continue to sin while crying "Lord, Lord".
28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."
08 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterFor the record:
Seeing as you've made a half-dozen or so posts without citing any passages that do so, it's hard to believe otherwise.
--------------------ToONE----------------
Not true.
I have talked about what Jesus said at the last supper and what he said when describing the Lord's Prayer to his followers.
Do you feel that I actually have to cut and pas ...[text shortened]... sight into human failings. Why would he be anything less?
"To understand is to forgive"
[quote]The fact is that no human being is perfect and all are flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behaviour. The real Jesus is much more patient with us than this and has immense compassion for our failings.
If this was so important to the teachings of Jesus, you should have no problem producing passages from when He walked the Earth and taught something akin to, "I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior. With this in mind and because of my patience and immense compassion for your failings, everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; even those who do not do the will of my Father who is in heaven."
This is your chance to show how your understanding of Jesus is fully supported by His teachings. After you've posted them all, I can repost the passages of His teachings that support my position. Maybe we can then work on reconciling them together.
Is it your contention that you aren't dancing around producing passages that support your assertions above with explicit statements made by Jesus while He walked the earth? Seeing as you've made a half-dozen or so posts without citing any passages that do so, it's hard to believe otherwise. Your attempt to deny it can only be characterized as absurd.
How about if you only try to address the first assertion with a passage akin to, "I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior."? After you've done this, you can tackle the second assertion. Or you can simply admit that you know of no such passages.[/quote]
KM has taken his usual tactic of taking out a line or two out of context from a post and trying to make it into something it isn't.
Note that he has NOT produced "passages that support [his] assertions above with explicit statements made by Jesus while He walked the earth"
Note that he has NOT "address[ed] the first assertion with a passage akin to, "I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior."
Instead he has taken a single line out of context and tried to pretend that he has complied with the request by omitting the line before that explains what was meant by "without citing any passages that do so." The fact remains that he has not been able to back up his assertions with "with explicit statements made by Jesus while He walked the earth".
The usual dishonest tactics from a dishonest person.
If he remains true to form, he'll continue to dance around this, to avoid simply admitting that he knows of no such passages.
08 Mar 10
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==================================
C'mon jaywill. All you've done is take verses (not all said by Jesus) and cobbled them together. It's like taking a picture of a landscape, cutting out a couple boulders, a few tree trunks, a couple of branches, etc. pieced them together and then proclaiming that the picture is of an elephant.
What's more, you've also ignored what Jesus was teaching. ardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."
C'mon jaywill. All you've done is take verses (not all said by Jesus) and cobbled them together.
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Still no admission that you do not believe in Jesus' resurrection.
The whole Bible is the speaking of Jesus when your spirit is tuned in to God and your heart is opened.
The book of Romans is the speaking of Jesus. Not just the red letters in the four Gospels are the speaking of Jesus.
Then again you don't receive the quotations of Jesus from the book of Acts as Jesus speaking because you do not believe Jesus rose from the dead.
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What's more, you've also ignored what Jesus was teaching. For example, the text from Matthew 23 was taken from a passage that is an explanation of hypocrisy. Note the following which is an apt description of the condition of Christians who continue to sin while crying "Lord, Lord".
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It says that not all who say Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens.
It is you who link "heaven" / " eternal life" / "salvation" in a loose way. So you read a passage about not entering into the kingdom of the heavens and you mentally substitute have eternal life. But the two phrases are not always equivalent.
You have not proved that everywhere in the New Testament the terms are perfectly interchangeable.
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28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."
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Operative word there is "before men".
Some carnal Christians do not appear righteous "before men". Thier behavior is immature and backslidden. They're righteousness does not exceed that displayed by the scribes and Pharisees. They will not be rewarded with the reward of reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom.
This does not mean that they are not eternally redeemed.
Peter says that Lot was a righteous man (2 Peter 2:7,8). Lot, the nephew of Abraham, left Abraham and went to live in Sodom. He was mocked by the local people. Before God he was a saint. But he was a defeated saint.
Lot, was positionally righteous, because he did believe in the God of glory who appeared to Abraham. Peter calls Lot a righteous man. But before the inhabitants of Sodom he was not to be taken seriously. He was a defeated righteous man. He was not an overcoming righteous man.
Positionally he was righteous to God. Before man he was not righteous but they mocked him for being just about in the same condition as the rest of the people in Sodom. Dispositionally, he was defeated in his daily life.
In the New Testament it is similar. To enter into the reward of reigning with Christ we must be transformed and constituted righteous in our behavior. This is for reward.
But eternal life and eternal redemption is a GIFT. It is hard to even find the word repentence in the Gospel of John. And John's Gospel is the book emphatically teaching man how to believe in Christ to receive eternal life.
You've lost the case.
CONFESS WHERE YOU STAND WITH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS.
08 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillIt's evident that the words that Jesus spoke while walking the Earth has no more meaning to you than the words of Paul and others even though Jesus says to follow HIS commandments, continue in HIS word, etc.
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C'mon jaywill. All you've done is take verses (not all said by Jesus) and cobbled them together.
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Still no admission that you do not believe in Jesus' resurrection.
The whole Bible is the speaking of Jesus when your spirit is tuned in to God and your heart is op st the case.
CONFESS WHERE YOU STAND WITH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS.[/b]
John 8:32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
It's evident that you have no real interest in being a disciple of His.
Rather you choose to be a disciple of Paul and others.
At least be honest enough with yourself to understand this.
08 Mar 10
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneyes but Christ also qualified the statement and elucidated on the identifying mark of true Christianity,
It's evident that the words that Jesus spoke while walking the Earth has no more meaning to you than the words of Paul and others even though Jesus says to follow HIS commandments, continue in HIS word, etc.
John 8:32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "[b]If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; an disciple of Paul and others.
At least be honest enough with yourself to understand this.[/b]
(John 13:34-35) . . .I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”
you see it is quite easy to state that one keeps and remains within the teachings of Christ, however, it should be outwardly manifest , that those who are actually practising and keeping the commandments of Christ, have love among themselves, should it not? Otherwise what was Christ saying?
08 Mar 10
3 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne[/b] Still no admission of your stance on the resurrection of Christ.
It's evident that the words that Jesus spoke while walking the Earth has no more meaning to you than the words of Paul and others even though Jesus says to follow HIS commandments, continue in HIS word, etc.
John 8:32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "[b]If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and yo disciple of Paul and others.
At least be honest enough with yourself to understand this.
Are you a pro-crypto atheist ?
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It's evident that the words that Jesus spoke while walking the Earth has no more meaning to you than the words of Paul and others even though Jesus says to follow HIS commandments, continue in HIS word, etc.
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It is totally in vain that you parade yourself as REALLY being for the words of Jesus whereas "Paul and others" need to sit at your feet and get clarification.
You don't even take seriouosly the words of Jesus after His resurrection when He was still "walking on earth".
You reject delegated authroity under the pretense that you are only for direct authority. But actually you have quite a few problems with the quotations of Jesus too.
Do you think selecting only the sayings which validate your humanism will appear to me as your being faithful to Christ's quotations ? I was raised in the theologically liberal branch of the Presbyterian denomination. I recognize and grasp your humanism quite easily.
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John 8:32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
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I have experienced that. Its true. If and when I continue not only in His Logos but in His rhema, His instance up to the moment speaking and teaching of the anointing.
Whether you like it or not, the progress of a Christian is based upon His being redeemed and saved forever.
The very matter you object to is the ground upon which the believer may grow and progress.
What your philosophy is like is telling and re-telling a human being that he has not yet been born.
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It's evident that you have no real interest in being a disciple of His.
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I know a wolf in sheep's clothing. And that is what you are.
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Rather you choose to be a disciple of Paul and others.
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You rather I would be YOUR disciple. But you are a wolf in sheep's clothing, a false prophet coming with "another Jesus".
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At least be honest enough with yourself to understand this.
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Still no guts to tell the world where you stand with the resurrection of Christ.
08 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior."
For the record:
[quote][quote][b]The fact is that no human being is perfect and all are flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behaviour. The real Jesus is much more patient with us than this and has immense compassion for our failings.
If this was so important to the teachings of Jesus, you should have no problem producing passages from when He around this, to avoid simply admitting that he knows of no such passages.[/b]
-------ToOne----------------
These are your words not mine.
I said "the real is much more patient with us and has immense compassion for our failings"
I did not say that he said this explicitly. I am saying that it is implied in what Jesus said and did.
I could equally set up a strawman for you and ask where does Jesus explicitly say " One must be 100% sinless in order to gain eternal life and if you repent and then sin again that proves that you are not righteous and therefore you cannot be forgiven "
One could spend many fruitless hours coming up with a myriad of fruitless strawmen based on other themes and misrepresentations - but what would be the point?
So, in response to your previous post.........I admit I know of no such passages. What exactly do you think this proves?
So , I've stopped dancing - your turn now.
Could you say how you reconcile the Lord's Prayer with your position?
BTW- You may despise me or think me a liar - whatever - but could you please do me the decency of talking to me in the first person rather than talking to me as "he" - it's not only inaccurate but also betrays the immensity of your hubris.
10 Mar 10
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieJesus said to "follow HIS commandments, continue in HIS word, etc." not to merely "state that one keeps and remains within the teachings of Christ" as you put.
yes but Christ also qualified the statement and elucidated on the identifying mark of true Christianity,
(John 13:34-35) . . .I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. [b]By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”
you se ...[text shortened]... andments of Christ, have love among themselves, should it not? Otherwise what was Christ saying?[/b]
John 8:32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free...Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
His true disciples will know the truth and be made free from the slavery of committing sin.
10 Mar 10
Originally posted by jaywillWell, jaywill, the reality is that what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth and what you believe are two very different things.
Still no admission of your stance on the resurrection of Christ.
Are you a pro-crypto atheist ?
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It's evident that the words that Jesus spoke while walking the Earth has no more meaning to you than the words of Paul and others even though Jesus says to follow HIS commandments, continue in HIS word, etc. ...[text shortened]... Still no guts to tell the world where you stand with the resurrection of Christ.
For example, Jesus did not teach that all one need do is profess belief with ones mouth for "eternal life", yet this seems to be what you believe.
10 Mar 10
Originally posted by epiphinehasI wasn't planning on it. The last few times you've responded to my posts, it became clear that you were interested in voicing your opinion rather than engaging in a discussion, so there seemed to be little point.
ThinkOfOne, are you going to be responding to my post?
10 Mar 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSo are you a TRUE disciple? Simple question for a simple answer....
Jesus said to "follow HIS commandments, continue in HIS word, etc." not to merely "state that one keeps and remains within the teachings of Christ" as you put.
John 8:32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you fr ...[text shortened]... is true disciples will know the truth and be made free from the slavery of committing sin.
10 Mar 10
3 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterNote that here KM says "I've stopped dancing - your turn now", yet just a couple of posts prior he said, "You then try and accuse me of dancing around a subject..." intimating that he had not been dancing around the subject and was being falsely accused. Yet another example of His dishonesty.
"I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior."
-------ToOne----------------
These are your words not mine.
I said "the real is much more patient with us and has immense compassion for our failings"
I did not say that he me as "he" - it's not only inaccurate but also betrays the immensity of your hubris.
Also note that once again KM has taken his usual tactic of taking out a line or two out of context from a post and trying to make it into something it isn't.
Note what KM says about the following:
"I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior."
KM says:
"These are your words not mine. I said 'the real is much more patient with us and has immense compassion for our failings'"
Here KM intimates that what he said was twisted beyond all recognition.
However the text which he took out of context refers to his first assertion which said, "The fact is that no human being is perfect and all are flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behaviour."
Let's look at the text he quoted once again:
"I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior."
His first assertion and the text he quoted are in fact quite similar. KM showed his second assertion when referring to text aimed at his first assertion and pointed out that they are not similar. Yet another example of his dishonesty.
The usual dishonest tactics from a dishonest person.