God is....

Originally posted by Kepler
As often squawked in this forum, this isn't about me and nor is it about you and your personal beliefs. I am just trying to ascertain what characteristics a god, any god, would have. I am not asking what makes your own personal god a deity. Try to think in general terms, if you had not already decided that one particular god is indeed a god, what would you require that god to have or be able to do to convince you?

As often squawked in this forum, this isn't about me and nor is it about you and your personal beliefs. I am just trying to ascertain what characteristics a god, any god, would have. I am not asking what makes your own personal god a deity. Try to think in general terms, if you had not already decided that one particular god is indeed a god, what would you require that god to have or be able to do to convince you?

This sounds to me like you wish I would pretend to be just as much in the dark as yourself. I'm sure you'll find some agnostic to chew the fat with you and play along.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] As often squawked in this forum, this isn't about me and nor is it about you and your personal beliefs. I am just trying to ascertain what characteristics a god, any god, would have. I am not asking what makes your own personal god a deity. Try to think in general terms, if you had not already decided that one particular god is indeed a god, what wou ...[text shortened]... ark as yourself. I'm sure you'll find some agnostic to chew the fat with you and play along.

Not pretend to be in the dark as such. I think that maybe a better way to put it would be what is that convinces you of the godness (for want of a better word) of your god?

I think I found my answer anyway. A god is that which enough people agree is a god, even if it has no real existence. This leaves room for as many gods as you like with as many different attributes as you care to mention. Not a very satisfactory state of affairs but that seems to be the best we can do.

Originally posted by Kepler
I know it has. I am thinking aloud. I am beginning to think a god is actually what enough people are willing to agree is a god. Even if something with the power to create whole universes with a wave of its metaphorical or allegorical appendages were to turn up there would be those willing to agree it is a god but there would still be others who would refuse to grant it god status for various reasons.

I think creating something from literally nothing (i.e., not recombining other materials, but rather, making something where before it and nothing else existed) is enough of a display of power for any sentient being to acknowledge the one so displaying is god--- or, as those of us who are a bit more familiar with Him say: God.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I think creating something from literally nothing (i.e., not recombining other materials, but rather, making something where before it and nothing else existed) is enough of a display of power for any sentient being to acknowledge the one so displaying is god--- or, as those of us who are a bit more familiar with Him say: God.

I'd be willing to bet there would still be some would refuse to acknowledge the godness of such a being. One reason would be that he/she/it is not the god they think they believe in. "There's one true god and that aint it". The other reason would be a simple refusal to believe in gods, I am thinking of the fundamentalist wing of atheism here. "It's big and powerful and so on but gods don't exist so that isn't a god".

Me? If such a thing turns up I'll be happy to call it what it wants. Trevor maybe.

Edit: So we might call the singularity from which sprang the universe a god? Strange, that would have us being inside a god.

Originally posted by Kepler
I don't think we even need to include super-human. Prince Phillip is all too human and yet he is evidently a god by consensus.

If he is a god by consensus then he is seen as super-human by his worshippers.

Originally posted by twhitehead
If he is a god by consensus then he is seen as super-human by his worshippers.

True. He seems like the old Greco-Rman gods rather than a more up to date version of a deity though. He is constantly make a prat of himself in public.

Originally posted by Kepler
Not pretend to be in the dark as such. I think that maybe a better way to put it would be what is that convinces you of the godness (for want of a better word) of your god?

I think I found my answer anyway. A god is that which enough people agree is a god, even if it has no real existence. This leaves room for as many gods as you like with as many differen ...[text shortened]... re to mention. Not a very satisfactory state of affairs but that seems to be the best we can do.

Not pretend to be in the dark as such. I think that maybe a better way to put it would be what is that convinces you of the godness (for want of a better word) of your god?

My last post to you was a tad abnoxious. I am surprised that you're still seeking my opinion.

Kepler, I like to think that I am useful in helping people to get something from the Bible. The path that I try to lead truly seeking people along is somewhat of the same path by which I came to know God.

Often this doesn't help some people. Sometimes I think it does.

C.S. Lewis was a intellectual atheist who decided to believe in Christ of the Gospels. He amused us much. He wrote that for people to speak of him "searching" for God (as an atheist) was like talking about a mouse searching for a cat. It just was not happening that he was "searching" for any god.

What are you looking for ? Are you looking for God? Maybe you looking to get away from God. Sure. Many people come to a Spirituality Forum for the express purpose of getting away from God.

Some come to get way from religion but find God.
But some come to get away from religion and God too.

Concerning your question - what convinced me of the "godness" of God.
I kind of already wrote about that.

I told you that in the light of no other person will one so clearly see his or herself. You'll just have to accept that I write that in the third person.

I also said to the effect that no one can get on the inside of a person's soul like Jesus. When you're touched in the deepest part of your being, you suspect that you have really been watched. And you are right.

"Somebody REALLY ... REALLY .... KNOWS ME !!"

This is what an enounter with God in all His "godness" is like.

Having said that, I want to add that it is also the "MANESS" and the "HUMANESS" of the incarnated Divine Being in Jesus Christ that convinces. This is God become a man, for certain.

I think I found my answer anyway. A god is that which enough people agree is a god, even if it has no real existence. This leaves room for as many gods as you like with as many different attributes as you care to mention. Not a very satisfactory state of affairs but that seems to be the best we can do.

Well, I think you'd be better off realizing that there is no other book ever produced quite like the Bible. I know the Bhavadaga-Gita gets close in a kind of a way. But it is not really in the same class. I know the Quran tries to get close. But there are lightyears of distance still between the Quran and the Holy Bible.

Some take comfort in a kind of dispair that you express. But I think you can do better than that. I also think that true truth is better than our magnanimus desire to be universal.

I think the truth of God is wider than the best magnanimus effort of the "good hearted" generalist trying to embrace everyone in the world.

I respect you're desire to be "wide" about God. I don't think you're wider than Gospel of the Christ. I honestly have found that if I want to be maximally big hearted then I have to be a follower of Jesus.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I think creating something from literally nothing (i.e., not recombining other materials, but rather, making something where before it and nothing else existed) is enough of a display of power for any sentient being to acknowledge the one so displaying is god--- or, as those of us who are a bit more familiar with Him say: God.

Has any such event been observed? I suspect that it would be impossible to observe such an event as observations almost by their very nature require time, space, matter and energy.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Has any such event been observed? I suspect that it would be impossible to observe such an event as observations almost by their very nature require time, space, matter and energy.

.... observers.

Originally posted by sonship

Not pretend to be in the dark as such. I think that maybe a better way to put it would be what is that convinces you of the godness (for want of a better word) of your god?

My last post to you was a tad abnoxious. I am surprised that you're still seeking my opinion.

Kepler, I like to think that I am useful in helping people to get ...[text shortened]... nt to be maximally big hearted then I have to be a follower of Jesus.

Thanks for that. I am used to obnoxious, a teacher of mathematics gets used to it after a while.

I am not seeking god or trying to deny god as such. I was just curious as to how we might decide that a specific being or thing is a god so that one would be able to identify such a being if one stumbled across it at some point. Let me give you an example by way of explanation. The recent possible confirmation of the Higgs particle could not have happened if those doing the experiments had no idea what they were looking for. I am asking for that prior information if you like. In this case though, the Higgs is whatever the experimenters say it is.

Originally posted by Kepler
Thanks for that. I am used to obnoxious, a teacher of mathematics gets used to it after a while.

I am not seeking god or trying to deny god as such. I was just curious as to how we might decide that a specific being or thing is a god so that one would be able to identify such a being if one stumbled across it at some point. Let me give you an example by wa ...[text shortened]... information if you like. In this case though, the Higgs is whatever the experimenters say it is.

Thanks for that. I am used to obnoxious, a teacher of mathematics gets used to it after a while.

And I confess to being, around here, an evangelist with an attitude.
I use to go by "jaywill." Then I took a extended vacation from the Forum. I actually terminated my membership to Chessatwork with a thankyou note to the webmasters for all the fun I had.

But I was addicted somewhat and wanted to stop arguing with the same old people all the time.

I did some composing and other work that requiired much time. But now I'm back after a long spell. I do play chess here too.

I am not seeking god or trying to deny god as such.

Okay.

I was just curious as to how we might decide that a specific being or thing is a god so that one would be able to identify such a being if one stumbled across it at some point.

I have no comment. I don't think I have anything in my heart right now about this.

Maybe only to say that "stumble across" kind of sounds like you think one has all the time in the world. Life is short in this regard.

Maybe I would say that to wait to "stumble across" God is too passive and apathetic.

Maybe ask me something again when you have the thought to invest some quality time as to how you might find God. I cannot garuantee that you will find God. I can help you, I think, a little bit, to come through the path which I came to find God.

I think I can save you some time. I am being serious. I think I can save you some wandering around in the wilderness. I actually believe that if you come to the point that you understand that life is short and you want to invest some time to find God, I think I can save you some wasted time in doing so.

Let me give you an example by way of explanation. The recent possible confirmation of the Higgs particle could not have happened if those doing the experiments had no idea what they were looking for.

Well one thing is certain. You can't have "Mass" without the Higgs particle!

That's humor there Kepler. That's funny. That's humor there.

I am asking for that prior information if you like. In this case though, the Higgs is whatever the experimenters say it is.

Well, I think in looking for God you are expecting to touch Authority.
Now it is risky to say that because so many people regard "authority" as some kind of dirty word.

But when you think about it, ultimate Authority and ultimate gentleness really go well together.

I mean this. That this God would not usurp your will, coerce you, force you to come to God, strong arm you or bludgeon you into believing, is understandable.

Ie. The leader/s of your country do not pound on your door and demand to come into your house and argue with you WHY you should highly regard them.
(Given the political climate today, the analogy is far from perfect)

I don't know how to advize a person how to "stumble across" God in that sense. But I am pretty sure that what you should expect to encounter is the highest Authority.

Having said that, I must add something. In the case of Jesus you also will touch the highest and deepest Submission TO Authority at the same time.

In One mysterious Being, you will touch the ultimate authority (the Father) and the ultimate submission to authority (the Son).

Now let me ask you something. Did you just kind of "stumble across" learning Mathematics ? Or did you "go for it?" - actively, non passively, pursuing with deliberateness ?

Originally posted by Kepler
... what exactly?

How would one know that one was in the presence of a god? Just for the sake of argument let us assume a plain vanilla god rather than a specific god. I don't want some tripe from a comic book regurgitated by the true believers and I don't want a blanket denial by the atheists.

Suppose someone knocks on your door, you open the door and rk. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck etc. So what counts as quacking for a god?

God is love. 1 John 4:8

Job has spoken right about God
Job 42:7

Originally posted by Kepler
I'd be willing to bet there would still be some would refuse to acknowledge the godness of such a being. One reason would be that he/she/it is not the god they think they believe in. "There's one true god and that aint it". The other reason would be a simple refusal to believe in gods, I am thinking of the fundamentalist wing of atheism here. "It's big and po ...[text shortened]... from which sprang the universe a god? Strange, that would have us being inside a god.

You'll have to excuse the analogy and just go with it for the sake of fractional truth the following conveys.

Bill Clinton is a hated man.
Despised, even.
By some.
Adored, admired, nearly worshiped.
By others.
Completely unknown and therefore no impact.
On still others.
Yet for those who have any sense of him at all, he carries an undeniable weight.
When he walks into a room, the room increases in energy and (if such a thing could be accurately measured) anticipation/excitement.
Even for those who are firmly entrenched within the first group, his presence is distinct and palpable.
His persuasiveness isn't legendary; it is an historical fact.
He has been endowed (ha!) with a sparkling, energetic--- even comely--- personality.
He's a pretty big deal, in other words.

Some comedians made a pretty good living imitating him during his presidency and even following the same.
Yet, no matter how well they mimic, not a single comedian could hope to command the attention of the bona fide Bill by walking in the room... even in full regalia.
You know when you're seeing the real deal.

That experience may bring forth your hatred of his politics, or the other end of the spectrum, your adoration for the man.
But the experience of his personality leaves you with the distinct knowledge of him.

That's all minor (even microscopic, really) to being in the presence of the God who creates, but the correlation still applies.
Love Him, hate Him, there's still no denying Him!

Originally posted by twhitehead
Has any such event been observed? I suspect that it would be impossible to observe such an event as observations almost by their very nature require time, space, matter and energy.

The record shows that no one was there when He created, save Him.
Now, when He re-created the angels witnessed it and rejoiced in the display.
They were able to because they were in time.

That being said, there is an energy associated with such power that is undeniable.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The record shows that no one was there when He created, save Him.
Now, when He re-created the angels witnessed it and rejoiced in the display.
They were able to because they were in time.

That being said, there is an energy associated with such power that is undeniable.

So time can exist without space and matter and energy? What substance communicated this creation to the angels to enable them to 'witness' it? Is there some other dimension you are not telling us about or know nothing about?
So when you say God created something from nothing, you really mean that he acted cross dimensionally. But since we know angels are capable of this too, then that is not really a god-power.