Spirituality
07 Mar 18
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Originally posted by @apathistWho bore the universal evil of sin and its judgement in His body on the cross to save us?
God made everything that exists. Evil exists.So who is to blame for the existence of evil?
i don't know who you wish to blame for your sins. I know before you assigned blame, God as a man already carried up in Himself the judgment against sin that all men may be saved.
"Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:21)
09 Mar 18
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Originally posted by @romans1009Isaiah 45:7
If evil is the absence of good, then the existence of evil can be traced to God’s decision to give His creation free will. That doesn’t mean God created evil; it means God allowed the potential for evil to exist.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
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10 Mar 18
Originally posted by @vivifyI’ve read Biblical scholars who have said a better translation from the Hebrew is “calamity” and not “evil.” I’ll check to make sure my memory is right on that and how other translations treat that passage.
Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
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Originally posted by @romans1009Two commentaries on that passage - one short, the other long.
I’ve read Biblical scholars who have said a better translation from the Hebrew is “calamity” and not “evil.” I’ll check to make sure my memory is right on that and how other translations treat that passage.
From Matthew Poole: “All men’s comforts and calamities come from my hand.”
From Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible:
“I make peace, and create evil; peace between God and men is made by Christ, who is God over all; spiritual peace of conscience comes from God, through Christ, by the Spirit; eternal glory and happiness is of God, which saints enter into at death; peace among the saints themselves here, and with the men of the world; peace in churches, and in the world, God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God; see Job 2:10,”
Originally posted by @romans1009So then God didn't create evil, he just does evil things: creates calamity, tortures people for eternity, the doctrine of "election", that says some people are doomed to hell before they were even born, commanded stoning women for not being virgins, threatened rape for disobedience, the stoning of gays, etc., etc.
Two commentaries on that passage - one short, the other long.
From Matthew Poole: “All men’s comforts and calamities come from my hand.”
From Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible:
“I make peace, and create evil; peace between God and men is made by Christ, who is God over all; spiritual peace of conscience comes from God, through Christ, by the ...[text shortened]... l afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God; see Job 2:10,”
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10 Mar 18
Originally posted by @vivifyYou’ve quite a bit there.
So then God didn't create evil, he just does evil things: creates calamity, tortures people for eternity, the doctrine of "election", that says some people are doomed to hell before they were even born, commanded stoning women for not being virgins, threatened rape for disobedience, the stoning of gays, etc., etc.
What you view as calamity could easily be interpreted as God getting someone or a population’s attention and drawing them to Him. It’s a fact of life that we tend to ignore God when things are going well and only turn to Him in earnest when things go bad and we feel like we have nowhere else to turn. That said, some of what I think you ascribe as “evil things” could also be God chastising us to correct sins.
“And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.”
(Hebrews 12:5-11)
But I wouldn’t ascribe every misfortune (or even most misfortunes) to God, particularly if the misfortune has no purpose to it. Sometimes bad things happen as a result of man’s free will and sin and oftentimes “innocent people” are affected by it, sometimes severely.
BTW, I put innocent people in quotes because none of us are truly innocent due to original sin.
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10 Mar 18
As far as “torturing people for eternity,” I’ve already said I don’t know if annihilationism or an eternity in hell await the damned. I should probably look into it. I know there is Biblical support for annihilationism but don’t remember what it is and don’t remember what the Biblical support is for an eternity in hell.
I do know and believe that however God handles unbelievers will be just because He is a holy and just God.
I think we’re looking at and trying to judge God from a very limited perspective and with very limited understanding.
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Originally posted by @vivifyI’m not sure the doctrine of election, or predestination, is correct for everyone. I personally believe it is correct for a small segment of the population - that is, God chose them to be saved before they were born.
So then God didn't create evil, he just does evil things: creates calamity, tortures people for eternity, the doctrine of "election", that says some people are doomed to hell before they were even born, commanded stoning women for not being virgins, threatened rape for disobedience, the stoning of gays, etc., etc.
But let’s say it’s true for everyone. Does that interfere with your free will?
If God knows past, present and future, and as an omniscient God, I think He does, does God’s knowledge of whether you will choose to believe in Jesus Christ affect or interfere with your decision?
If an unknown man in Siberia heard you were going to the grocery store and wrote down everything you were going to buy on a piece of paper before you got there, did that interfere with your decisions of what to buy?
If God knows ahead of time who will choose to believe in Him, and more specifically Jesus Christ’s Resurrection, He is not determining who is damned and who isn’t - He just knows ahead of time who will choose to believe and who won’t.
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10 Mar 18
Originally posted by @vivifyDo you have verses on the stoning to death of non-virgins, threats of rape for disobedience and stoning to death of gays? I’ve only heard of the last one and would rather respond to all three at once.
So then God didn't create evil, he just does evil things: creates calamity, tortures people for eternity, the doctrine of "election", that says some people are doomed to hell before they were even born, commanded stoning women for not being virgins, threatened rape for disobedience, the stoning of gays, etc., etc.
Originally posted by @romans1009Virginity: Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Do you have verses on the stoning to death of non-virgins, threats of rape for disobedience and stoning to death of gays? I’ve only heard of the last one and would rather respond to all three at once.
Gays: Leviticus 20:12-13
Rape: Deuteronomy 28:15-30
15"if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:
20The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a]
21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess.
22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish.
23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.
25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth.
26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away.
27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured.
28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind.
30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her.
That's a long list of evil threatened by your God; and that's not even all of it.