God vs Satan

Originally posted by KellyJay
If there is no god!

My post before that statement made it clear, the storm is not evil,
it is just a storm. It is what it is, the universe acts this way when the
conditions were there to create a strom, a storm was created and the
storm does what it does. People dying are just part of the process,
even a great loss of life isn't evil, it is nature, ...[text shortened]... in a universe without God.
Since people are simply acting according to their nature too.
Kelly

you lost me. when did we start working under the assumption that there is no god? the typhoon example i used was working under the assumption that an omnipotent, omniscient god does exist; or, i guess, more specifically it was working under the conditional that if such a god exists, then the typhoon is an evil act perpetrated by him.

i agree with you that if there is no god, then the typhoon is not an evil act, but merely a natural act that happens to have some negative ramifications. but if an omnipotent, omniscient god does exist, then how is he not responsible for the typhoon and its ramifications?

Originally posted by LemonJello
you lost me. when did we start working under the assumption that there is no god? the typhoon example i used was working under the assumption that an omnipotent, omniscient god does exist; or, i guess, more specifically it was working under the conditional that if such a god exists, then the typhoon is an evil act perpetrated by him.

i agree with you ...[text shortened]... but if an omnipotent, omniscient god does exist, then how is he not responsible for the typhoon?

The theists' universal answer for nearly everything is "god done it." The sole exception seems to be in regard to evil, in which case the answer is "mankind done it." Funny how that works.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Why I ask, depending on what God is doing why should suffering
not be apart of life?
Kelly

Because it hurts. It's painful. People don't like it. Suffering is a bad thing. How can you think the world isn't better without suffering than it is with it?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Because it hurts. It's painful. People don't like it. Suffering is a bad thing. How can you think the world isn't better without suffering than it is with it?

People may not like the color blue, that does not change the color
of the sky now does it? Suffering isn't a bad thing all by itself, it is
simply reactions of nerves, depending on the levels of those reactions
you get both pleasure or pain. You need pain to help you learn
how to walk and avoid running into things, how to grasp balance so
that you can ride a bike, it is part of life. Pain is simply part of the
otal package of life, the cause of suffering is the root of our
discussion. Do rapest care that what they do cause suffering, since
they are acting out in the universe in such a way that causes pain
and suffering that does not have to happen, but instead they make
it happen.
Kelly

Originally posted by rwingett
The theists' universal answer for nearly everything is "god done it." The sole exception seems to be in regard to evil, in which case the answer is "mankind done it." Funny how that works.

It is only a universal answer for the things God has done. You don't
talk about the things God did, I will not give you that answer. I will
also lay the blame on mankind for the things that mankind has done.
I don't pass the blame on to God because God gives us the ability
to choose back on to God. That has been man's MO since Adam told
God, 'It was the woman you gave me..." we just want to make sure
we are clean even when we are the ones doing the deeds.
Kelly

Originally posted by LemonJello
you lost me. when did we start working under the assumption that there is no god? the typhoon example i used was working under the assumption that an omnipotent, omniscient god does exist; or, i guess, more specifically it was working under the conditional that if such a god exists, then the typhoon is an evil act perpetrated by him.

i agree with you ...[text shortened]... omniscient god does exist, then how is he not responsible for the typhoon and its ramifications?

I guess you'll have to go back and read the conversation, it was going
along with God and I split into two different points. One where what if
God wasn't real, and one where God was. Those two things change
quite a bit when it comes to how the universe should be looked at,
depending on which is true. The root cause of the universe defines
how the universe should be viewed, and the actions within it too.
Kelly

Originally posted by rwingett
The theists' universal answer for nearly everything is "god done it." The sole exception seems to be in regard to evil, in which case the answer is "mankind done it." Funny how that works.

No that is incorrect. It is very simple actually..God is good...He gives good things...The devil is bad...he does evil things...

John 10:10
10 The thief(Satan) cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
(KJV)

Originally posted by checkbaiter
No that is incorrect. It is very simple actually..God is good...He gives good things...The devil is bad...he does evil things...

John 10:10
10 The thief(Satan) cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
(KJV)

but God gave us the devil.

Originally posted by frogstomp
but God gave us the devil.

Yes, but that has already been covered here.

Originally posted by KellyJay
People may not like the color blue, that does not change the color
of the sky now does it? Suffering isn't a bad thing all by itself, it is
simply reactions of nerves, depending on the levels of those reactions
you get both pleasure or pain. You need pain to help you learn
how to walk and avoid running into things, how to grasp balance so
that you can ...[text shortened]... auses pain
and suffering that does not have to happen, but instead they make
it happen.
Kelly

And people don't like pain, and that doesn't change the fact that pain exists. That doesn't mean suffering isn't bad. If someone dislikes blue, then the unpleasantness that comes from that dislike is also bad.

You need pain to help you learn how to walk and avoid running into things, how to grasp balance so that you can ride a bike, it is part of life.

Yes it is. It shouldn't be though. God could have made the universe with all the benefits of pain and none of the suffering that comes of it supposedly. If he could have, he should have.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
First of all nowhere in the bible are the words omnipotent nor omni-anything. These are man's words trying to explain God's attributes.
I can only quote scripture to answer your question..
Titus 1:2
2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
(NKJ)

Num 23:19
19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a s ...[text shortened]... is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"
(NKJ)

thanks for the post; i enjoyed reading it.

If God could lie, He then would not be Holy...

i don't agree with this. i could rape young women, but that doesn't mean that i am not NOT a rapist of young women. if god possessed the ability to lie but always willfully refrained from lying, then how would that make him unholy?

do you agree that god is supposedly 'perfect'? which of the following would you consider more perfect, all things else the same?:

Being 1: a being who has the ability to commit unholy acts, but willfully refrains from ever doing so.

Being 2: a being who does not possess the ability to commit unholy acts.

in both cases, the Being only commits holy (or neutral) acts, but Being 1 seems more perfect to me. at least on an aesthetic level, Being 1 would certainly be my preference. for one thing, Being 2 is not omnipotent whereas Being 1 may be. for another thing, one could argue that the state of being holy entails at least the ability to commit unholy acts (this would be similar to an argument that says that moral responsibility entails free will); Being 1 has this base covered, whereas Being 2 does not.

...it concerns God giving Adam certain authority in the world...Then Adam was deceived into transferring this authority to Satan...then (God) could not rightfully take it back...

this is an interesting take; but i don't like your million dollar example. there is a clear difference between my giving the money away freely and my being deceived out of the money. maybe a better example would be that you gave me a million dollars, and then i got mugged on my way home. wouldn't it be just for us to go after the mugger and get the money back? if satan 'deceived' adam out of such authority (which indeed i think is how it reads), then why wouldn't it be 'right' for god to take back the authority from satan?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes, but that has already been covered here.

a tad of formal logic is in order here:

God gave us only good
God gave us the devil

Therefore the devil is good

Originally posted by LemonJello
Being 1: a being who has the ability to commit unholy acts, but willfully refrains from ever doing so.

Being 2: a being who does not possess the ability to commit unholy acts.

Are they really different?

If the ever restriction in Being 1 is absolute, then perhaps there is no difference.

Originally posted by Palynka
Are they really different?

If the [b]ever restriction in Being 1 is absolute, then perhaps there is no difference.[/b]

i would say there is a difference. Being 2 is definitely not omnipotent, for example, and the two beings possess different capabilities, even if these capabilities may not be exercised.

there would perhaps be no discernable difference based on mere observation of the two beings' actions -- perhaps no practical difference from that perspective. your question is certainly valid, and it is one i have wrestled with when trying to figure out just how much time i really waste on contemplating whether or not free will exists.

Originally posted by LemonJello
thanks for the post; i enjoyed reading it.

[b]If God could lie, He then would not be Holy...

i don't agree with this. i could rape young women, but that doesn't mean that i am not NOT a rapist of young women. if god possessed the ability to lie but always willfully refrained from lying, then how would that make him unholy?

do you agree th ...[text shortened]... how it reads), then why wouldn't it be 'right' for god to take back the authority from satan?[/b]

We are all capable of rape, but carying out the act is what would make us rapist...no?

Question #2..Yes God is perfect, morally and every which way.

The 2 nd part to your question is ...I don't know , would be the honest answer...but I would have to agree with you on #1...because God certainly would have the ability to do anything, as these verses show....

Isa 40:13-26
13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
20 He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
(KJV)

Isa 40:28-31
28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
(KJV)

What I am thankful for, is that this awesome being, with all this power...chooses to love. And what I have learned is that He does not just love His people, but He loves each one of us individually and personally with a "passionate love"..this is what blows me away...I have experienced things, prayers answered, in such marvelous ways, even when I did not deserve it.

And I hesitate to speculate on some of these topics, only because of my respect and love for God and the Lord Jesus Christ. His understanding is unreachable...we only see in part...and what He reveals to us in His Word...

I also know that you are interested in the knowledge of God...all I can say is keep looking, keep thinking, keep asking. But in the end, it will be understanding His great love for you and all who seek Him, that will finally "open" your understanding as well as anyone with a sincere desire to know Him.

As far as the million dollars....Adam was tricked, yes but when I say deceived, it is based solely on the fact that he was dealing with a superior being in satan....It is not evident reading Genesis in english, but the word for "serpent" means one that "hisses" or whispers, also the text reveals that he was a "shining one" or appeared brilliant. He is referred to as an angel of light (if he so wishes)...but Adam went in with his eyes wide open....it isn't like he was mugged, he knew what he was doing...by the way, it was Eve who was first deceived, and Adam went along...