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25 Aug 05
Originally posted by frogstompBy creating satan in the first place, He has shown what evil is like and what God's goodness is like. Thus we have the choice. If He created us to only love him without the option of rejection, then is this really love? Satan has served God's purpose.
a tad of formal logic is in order here:
God gave us only good
God gave us the devil
Therefore the devil is good
25 Aug 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterwhy do you insist on making God look foolish?
By creating satan in the first place, He has shown what evil is like and what God's goodness is like. Thus we have the choice. If He created us to only love him without the option of rejection, then is this really love? Satan has served God's purpose.
25 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoung[/b]When you design your universe, you can leave pain out of it.
And people don't like pain, and that doesn't change the fact that pain exists. That doesn't mean suffering isn't bad. If someone dislikes blue, then the unpleasantness that comes from that dislike is also bad.
[b]You need pain to help you learn how to walk and avoid running into things, how to grasp balance so that you can ride a bike, it is ...[text shortened]... f pain and none of the suffering that comes of it supposedly. If he could have, he should have.
Kelly
25 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungNo, and I don't assume God wants that either. I said pain is a part of
If I could, I would. Apparently you'd torture your creations for no reason.
life as is pleasure, we tend to make the universe good or bad as we
see fit. As I pointed out when discussing storms, in a universe without
God, everything we are complaining about is still taking place, why?
Because people are taking food away from the weak, they are beating
and killing those under their control and power. They make rules so
that they can stay in power even though it hurts those under them.
Without God to blame, all this evil falls on mankind! I have said we
are the ones that are doing this to ourselves, all along!
I happen to believe God backed away and allowed us to do as we will.
That is choice, that is our will in action. I assume you don't like that
idea, but nonetheless it is there. In a universe without God only man
is to be blame for the evil we do, in a universe that God gives us the
will and choice, man is to blame for the evil we do. Man however wants
to blame God though, like Adam did. Some things never change. God
makes away out of the pain and suffering by giving us something
much greater than both pain and pleasure this world has in it, but still
God is cursed by those that refuse him. It will not change, those that
come to God will be belong to Him in His Kingdom, those that don’t
won’t be.
Kelly
25 Aug 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloHow do you define free-will?
i would say there is a difference. Being 2 is definitely not omnipotent, for example, and the two beings possess different capabilities, even if these capabilities may not be exercised.
there would perhaps be no discernable difference based on mere observation of the two beings' actions -- perhaps no practical difference from that perspective. your ...[text shortened]... o figure out just how much time i really waste on contemplating whether or not free will exists.
25 Aug 05
Posted this before, no takers?
There are a couple of ways God could deal with evil.
1. Not allow any to act out anything that is evil, so diminishes free will.
2. Create the universe and punish those that are about to do evil,
before it is done to make sure it never occurs.
3. Create the universe allow evil to manifest itself, deal directory with
those that are going to suffer to the exposure as evil happens to them,
and deal with those that do evil as soon as it occurs.
4. Allow good and evil to reveal themselves throughout the universe
so a judgment against good and evil can be made out anyone having
any doubts what should be allowed to survive and what should not.
5. Fill in anything I didn't think of here.
Kelly
25 Aug 05
Originally posted by KellyJayI believe nobody is denying that there are many possibilities, but not all are consistent with an omnipotent, omniscient and morally perfect God.
Posted this before, no takers?
There are a couple of ways God could deal with evil.
1. Not allow any to act out anything that is evil, so diminishes free will.
2. Create the universe and punish those that are about to do evil,
before it is done to make sure it never occurs.
3. Create the universe allow evil to manifest itself, deal directory with ...[text shortened]... e allowed to survive and what should not.
5. Fill in anything I didn't think of here.
Kelly
25 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoung[/b]I'd like to point out too that God did create a universe without pain
And people don't like pain, and that doesn't change the fact that pain exists. That doesn't mean suffering isn't bad. If someone dislikes blue, then the unpleasantness that comes from that dislike is also bad.
[b]You need pain to help you learn how to walk and avoid running into things, how to grasp balance so that you can ride a bike, it is ...[text shortened]... f pain and none of the suffering that comes of it supposedly. If he could have, he should have.
and suffering. We brought that into the picture through our taking
something that wasn't ours to take, because we wanted it.
Kelly
25 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by PalynkaYou have the wisdom and knowledge to tell an omnipotent,
I believe nobody is denying that there are many possibilities, but not all are consistent with an omnipotent, omniscient and morally perfect God.
omniscient, and morally perfect God how He should do things?
I personally believe almost all of the complaining against God is
because people do not want to owe up to the fact that it is people
who are making the choices to rape, murder, rob other people.
Instead they want to blame God, because God made them, or
because God didn't stop it. God is going to stop it all, the time for
evil is going to be short lived, it is but a small bump in the road
to what God desires. He is simply allowing things to fallout naturally
as He is saving as many of us as desire to be saved, until the
Day of the Lord arrives. After that suffering, pain, death, and like
things will be done away with forever.
Kelly
25 Aug 05
Originally posted by KellyJayThey don't just want to blame God for all evils, they want to do away with Him altogether. That way, they don't have to worry about actions being "evil"; they can do away with guilt.
You have the wisdom and knowledge to tell an omnipotent,
omniscient, and morally perfect God how He should do things?
I personally believe almost all of the complaining against God is
because people do not want to owe up to the fact that it is people
who are making the choices to rape, murder, rob other people.
Instead they want to blame God, because ...[text shortened]... ives. After that suffering, pain, death, and like
things will be done away with forever.
Kelly
25 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayThat is incorrect. Those that do not believe in God blame only the people that did it. How could they blame God if they believe He doesn't exist?
You have the wisdom and knowledge to tell an omnipotent,
omniscient, and morally perfect God how He should do things?
I personally believe almost all of the complaining against God is
because people do not want to owe up to the fact that it is people
who are making the choices to rape, murder, rob other people.
Instead they want to blame God, because ...[text shortened]... ives. After that suffering, pain, death, and like
things will be done away with forever.
Kelly
I just say that there are three possibilities by observing the world around me:
- There is no God;
- God is dead or left a long time ago;
- God is a sadist.
My common sense and skeptical nature tells me the first one is much more probable, to the point of certainty.
Why do you think it is fair/good for Him to eternally condemn an atheist that only did good in his life? Does this sound like a reasonable God?