god=aliens

Originally posted by Agerg
I take your points on board but I'm not actually arguing against the feasibility of alien creators (such a thing, in my opinion, could potentially be true)

More I'm arguing against the necessity of alien creators. At some point of the humans were created by alien race_1 which were created by aline race_2 which were created by alien race_3 which were created ...[text shortened]... they didn't need to be created by aliens whilst we do need to have been created by aliens? 😕

the origin of aliens then is just left to speculation that i cant answer with science. i have no clue how life sprang up somewhere in the universe. i can only speculate our origin which is still only a theory. if you assume that aliens are what we believe to be god and you assume that aliens tell us the truth, then youd have to also assume that aliens have just existed forever and have no beginning or end. that is a lot of assuming lol. but god does say that he is eternal and lives outside of time and knowing that aliens can travel at almost the speed of light, possibly more, then they truly DO live outside the realms of time. that also creates the same paradox though.

Originally posted by Agerg
I take your points on board but I'm not actually arguing against the feasibility of alien creators (such a thing, in my opinion, could potentially be true)

More I'm arguing against the necessity of alien creators. At some point of the humans were created by alien race_1 which were created by aline race_2 which were created by alien race_3 which were created ...[text shortened]... they didn't need to be created by aliens whilst we do need to have been created by aliens? 😕

Firstly just because science hasn't discovered an eternal univers, its discovered a damn, big a long one. It could be eternal, no?

As I was trying to allude to earlier, conciousness itself needs no vessel as such.
It is the "great egg" of the world from which all things come and to which all things return.
In my interpetation of "aliens", which I have pointed out are actually E.T's that you refer to, its hard to know where a "mind without a body" and an actual physical entity begin and end.
Essentially you could argue, if you saw things similarly to me , that the process of creation is actually largley a non-visual phenomena.
So other than to come back and fix up their mistakes without letting on to anyone, they dont need to show themselves until WE are ready, and the process of creation remains the great mystery.

I can see your question clearly, however I'm having trouble answering it.
Hope this helps a bit.

Originally posted by Agerg
But he could ask why must you invoke alien creators; indeed if you rule out a magical god creator then as I asked you before, which alien creators most *our* alien creators invoke? and then who do they look to for their creation? and so on...
Is there some alien race X for which the sequence stops (such that they came to exist independent of any other entitie ...[text shortened]... endless chain (rules out the Big bang)?

If there is some X why must it necessarily not be us?

I posit an unbroken chain like universe AND a big bang kicking off things in our region.
The advanced aliens can go from matter into no matter and back, hence conciousness is the ground of all being and the "survival" of conciousness despite the universe destroying itself (and recreating itslef) in the material realm, from time to time.
Remeber my god is faceless and nameless. Its right there in front of you , now and always.
It is for the brave and honest. It is conciousness unfettered my illusion/material contstraints. It is our true selves.

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
the origin of aliens then is just left to speculation that i cant answer with science. i have no clue how life sprang up somewhere in the universe. i can only speculate our origin which is still only a theory. if you assume that aliens are what we believe to be god and you assume that aliens tell us the truth, then youd have to also assume that aliens ...[text shortened]... , then they truly DO live outside the realms of time. that also creates the same paradox though.

There are beings inhabiting the twelve dimensions including the subdimensions.
The fifth dimension would be referred to as "heaven" in our belief systems. We spend most of our time in the upper subdivisions of the third dimension and in the lower subdimensions of the fourth dimensions (dreaming, meditating,etc.).
Our goal is to keep up with the planet as She has decided to evolve so our incarnations are reflected within that decision.
The great Spirit has sent the best in this case, to help nurture the planet, its life forms and our fellow human beings through this transition. The great Spirit has sent us!

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
why cant you accept that perhaps god isnt so magical or miraculous? why cant you accept the possibility that maybe god was just a more intelligent being that created our race with far more advanced technology?

So you don't think God raised Jesus from the dead?

Originally posted by Agerg
I say it's moot since there is no valid way to establish you have the right idea or are instead barking up the wrong tree (or in the wrong forest).
Also I don't definitively say that the correct idea of some god (if such a thing existed) cannot arise in the minds without any intervention of your god - it is just highly implausible. That would be a statement I'd have to prove- I cannot.

So then, if there be a Creator/God, and since it is only an exercise in paradox-ism to speculate how God can be known, then is it too far fetched to say that the only way to know God is by some kind of supernatural spiritual revelation?

And, if there really isn't a Creator/God, then no revelation of God has ever been received from God.

It's one or the other, no?

Originally posted by josephw
So then, if there be a Creator/God, and since it is only an exercise in paradox-ism to speculate how God can be known, then is it too far fetched to say that the only way to know God is by some kind of supernatural spiritual revelation?

And, if there really isn't a Creator/God, then no revelation of God has ever been received from God.

It's one or the other, no?

It isn't far fetched to say that the only way to know God is by some kind of supernatural spiritual revelation; but you're trying to load the discussion in your favour.

Firstly you falsely assume that your physical senses would be capable of discerning between physical and non-physical imputs. What if a so-called message or miracle was just a hallucination???
Secondly, your capitalisation of "creator" didn't go unnoticed, and your intention here to refer to the god you believe in is unwarranted. If some god existed it might be a god that made this universe along with 30233420194837427284227320 others in the time it took for him to ruminate over what he ought to do "today" and actually doesn't give a sh** about their inhabitants.
Or perhaps it likes dogs the best and only sends them messages.
Or perhaps this creator god only has the power to facilitate the creation of universes by stirring a magic pot - and it lacks the ability to do anything else.
Or perhaps...
Thirdly, it could be the case that someone accidentally dreams up in their head the right idea of some existent god independently of any magic messages (unlikely but it if we suppose some god exists we can suppose someone else might get "lucky".).

Fourth, and most importantly; it's a bit daft to assume you ought to be able to know things about the supernatural. Such hubris on your, and other theists parts, that they have to have some insight into realms disjoint from their senses and apparatus - that they have to know some god.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I posit an unbroken chain like universe AND a big bang kicking off things in our region.
The advanced aliens can go from matter into no matter and back, hence conciousness is the ground of all being and the "survival" of conciousness despite the universe destroying itself (and recreating itslef) in the material realm, from time to time.
Remeber my g ...[text shortened]... onest. It is conciousness unfettered my illusion/material contstraints. It is our true selves.

Well local to our "region", if there was a big bang then assuming a finite length of time has passed since this big bang and that alien races don't create infinitely many other races within any time interval; then unless you're willing to sidestep the rules of logic we are forced to conclude a finite chain in "our region".

Originally posted by Agerg
Well local to our "region", if there was a big bang then assuming a finite length of time has passed since this big bang and that alien races don't create infinitely many other races within any time interval; then unless you're willing to sidestep the rules of logic we are forced to conclude a finite chain.

Again, the trick is to be able to transcend the material, as the E.T.'s have done, and then be god-like in the sense that time no longer affects you. You return to your spiritual body , which is not subject to decay or any of the other effects of time.

I'm not trying to say that you live forever in some augmented body, hell no, I'm trying to point to something different altogether.
This "something", that I have experienced (satori occrence), cannot be adequately put into words.
And I will leave it at that.

Where you are "forced to conclude a finite chain" , I see the opportunity/potential to transcend our current knowledge of life.
So, I see your point and do not pretend that it does not exist, just that there is more than one way of skinning a cat.
🙂

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
the origin of aliens then is just left to speculation that i cant answer with science. i have no clue how life sprang up somewhere in the universe. i can only speculate our origin which is still only a theory. if you assume that aliens are what we believe to be god and you assume that aliens tell us the truth, then youd have to also assume that aliens ...[text shortened]... , then they truly DO live outside the realms of time. that also creates the same paradox though.

Why should we assume aliens tell us the truth? Indeed, why should we assume any entity, natural or otherwise should tell us the truth?? 😕

Sorry E.V. but if you're going to identify the attributes of some god with the attributes of some alien race then any claims of yours that this alien is wholly natural comes about because you 'divided by zero' somewhere along the line.

If you wish to make your theory consistent with science then you need to throw away or revise any assumptions which lead to contradiction.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Again, the trick is to be able to transcend the material, as the E.T.'s have done, and then be god-like in the sense that time no longer affects you. You return to your spiritual body , which is not subject to decay or any of the other effects of time.

I'm not trying to say that you live forever in some augmented body, hell no, I'm trying to point to etend that it does not exist, just that there is more than one way of skinning a cat.
🙂

This would be ok if one dropped any insistence that what they're describing is a purely natural, non-magical phenomenon. I wouldn't believe them of course, but such a "theory" might be just as feasible as any other god-like "theory".

ExtremeVenom on the other hand seems to be trying to assert that all the properties one would attach to god having read various holy books can be explained in terms of normal, natural properties he would attach to some alien race. Putting aside the fact that some properties of certain gods simply cannot be extracted from their supernatural settings; if anyone such as myself or a moderate theist (forget the fundies) was to take his claims seriously then we'd need a good reason as to why we would need to be created by aliens, and why at least one alien race does not; preferably this natural explanation would be consistent with natural data.

Originally posted by Agerg
This would be ok if one dropped any insistence that what they're describing is a purely natural, non-magical phenomenon. I wouldn't believe them of course, but such a "theory" might be just as feasible as any other god-like "theory".

ExtremeVenom on the other hand seems to be trying to assert that all the properties one would attach to god having read vario ...[text shortened]... race does not; preferably this natural explanation would be consistent with natural data.

Understood.

I have just chimed into this thread cause its right up my alley.
Really, though, I've made my points, for now, and need to shut up until furthur questions come along...lest I start sounding like one of those fundies🙂

Originally posted by Agerg
Why should we assume aliens tell us the truth? Indeed, why should we assume any entity, natural or otherwise should tell us the truth?? 😕

Sorry E.V. but if you're going to identify the attributes of some god with the attributes of some alien race then any claims of yours that this alien is wholly natural comes about because you 'divided by zero' somewhere ...[text shortened]... th science then you need to throw away or revise any assumptions which lead to contradiction.

why is it that science claims to "prove" evolution to be true but it can only speculate about the origin? they dont know how life started; they just speculate that it was spontaneous. they say without any proof at all that under the correct conditions that support life, life can just spring up out of nowhere. why is it that this is accepted? why cant i say that i believe aliens give us the technology we need to improve but i do not know how we were created or how the aliens were created? when youre talking about aliens, it is hard to be taken seriously and you are scrutinized much more than normal scientific theories and thats not fair. you can not believe what a higher being tells you because they obviously would tell you whatever they needed to tell you to make you obey and become inferior to them. therefore, i only speculate that maybe they created us. we could have just sprung up from nothing. what i do not speculate however, is that aliens intervene in our everyday lives because i believe that is fact.

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
why is it that science claims to "prove" evolution to be true but it can only speculate about the origin? they dont know how life started; they just speculate that it was spontaneous. they say without any proof at all that under the correct conditions that support life, life can just spring up out of nowhere. why is it that this is accepted? why cant i ...[text shortened]... culate however, is that aliens intervene in our everyday lives because i believe that is fact.

why is it that science claims to "prove" evolution to be true but it can only speculate about the origin? they dont know how life started; they just speculate that it was spontaneous. they say without any proof at all that under the correct conditions that support life, life can just spring up out of nowhere. why is it that this is accepted? why cant i say that i believe aliens give us the technology we need to improve but i do not know how we were created or how the aliens were created?
Because you're trying to solve a problem by simply moving it out of sight; that's not very scientific. Again:
- if alien race_1 created us then you ought to say how they were "spontaneously created" or which alien species made them.
- if alien race_2 created alien race_1 then you ought to say how they were "spontaneously created" or which alien species made them.
- if alien race_3 created alien race_2 then you ought to say how they were "spontaneously created" or which alien species made them.
.
.
.
- if alien race_N created alien race_{N-1} then you ought to say how they were "spontaneously created". Reveal Hidden Content

After you have done this you should explain why alien race_N is so special to have not required an alien creator whilst we did. If you cannot do this, then though not a logically invalid proposal, it has no more clout than my assertion we were all spawned from a magic pot on the planet Blob in some galaxy over 100 million light years away.

when youre talking about aliens, it is hard to be taken seriously and you are scrutinized much more than normal scientific theories and thats not fair. you can not believe what a higher being tells you because they obviously would tell you whatever they needed to tell you to make you obey and become inferior to them. therefore, i only speculate that maybe they created us. we could have just sprung up from nothing. what i do not speculate however, is that aliens intervene in our everyday lives because i believe that is fact.
Well the difference between your "theories" and scientific theories is that the former tend to be pragmatic, quantifiable, well justified, tested, exposed to the peer review process, and consistent with natural data. Yours, though not impossible, is just a claim.

Originally posted by Agerg
It isn't far fetched to say that the only way to know God is by some kind of supernatural spiritual revelation; but you're trying to load the discussion in your favour.

Firstly you falsely assume that your physical senses would be capable of discerning between physical and non-physical imputs. What if a so-called message or miracle was just a hallucination ...[text shortened]... ms disjoint from their senses and apparatus - that they [b]have to know some god.[/b]

"It isn't far fetched to say that the only way to know God is by some kind of supernatural spiritual revelation; but you're trying to load the discussion in your favour."

No I'm not. I'm simply trying to break it down to it's least common denominator. I'm trying to find a way to "prove" what I believe. And I'm trying to do it openly and honestly. Don't accuse me of doing something misleading.

"Firstly you falsely assume that your physical senses would be capable of discerning between physical and non-physical imputs."

Wrong again. I'm not so dense as to think my physical senses can "know" God.

It's funny how I am focused on the positive aspects of discovering and knowing about something you are intent on trivializing and finding every excuse to deny the existence of.