Hawking: Universe happened without god.

Originally posted by RJHinds
What deities do you believe have gotten in the way of your understanding?

[b]Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

(Proverbs 3:5-6 NKJV)[/b]

Not my understanding, I don't bother gods and they don't bother me.

I have the task of teaching people about certain aspects of science. I have found that firm belief in the christian god, the one in the bible, can hinder a student's ability to do science. This applies especially to the two I have taught who had similar beliefs to yourself. If a person cannot discard beliefs and theories when the evidence for a different world view is so overwhelming they simply cannot be a physicist.

No doubt other deities may well have a similar effect but I have yet to meet any students similarly afflicted by Islam, Judaism, Hinduism or any of the other major world religions.

Originally posted by sonship
Understand this.
Not everything in life and in the universe is governed by what you prefer.

Very little, if anything, is governed by what we prefer. I suspect that you will be very disappointed if your preference is for a particular version of a particular deity.

Originally posted by Kepler
Very little, if anything, is governed by what we prefer. I suspect that you will be very disappointed if your preference is for a particular version of a particular deity.

One of the reasons that the Bible intriques me is that it consists of a long long record of God interaction with man. There is quite a track record there.

From Adam to Abraham we see God's faithfulness.
From Abraham through Moses we see more of His trustworthiness.
Through the ups and downs of Israel's history we see divine faithfulness.

There is some disappointment in these centries. But it is usually do to His people's unbelief in Him.

Probably the most intense disappointment was during those three days in which the crucified body of Jesus lay in the tomb. Can you imagine the dejection of the disciples.

Well, after three days SOMETHING happened. You know what I believe. I believe disappointment was vanquished by the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

But when it comes down to history, you would have to explain your alternative theory. These Jews had practice Sabbath keeping on Saturday for centries. What happened that overnight the practice of meeting on the first day of the week - "the Lord's day" became so strong with thousands of them ?

Why did they suddenly change? Why after centries of entrenched tradition a sizable portion of the Jews in Jerusalem began to gather on what they thought was the day that Jesus rose from the dead - the first day of the new week?

It it not so easy to sweep Christ aside with a little broom of generalities about gods.

Originally posted by sonship
One of the reasons that the Bible intriques me is that it consists of a long long record of God interaction with man. There is quite a track record there.

From Adam to Abraham we see God's faithfulness.
From Abraham through Moses we see more of His trustworthiness.
Through the ups and downs of Israel's history we see divine faithfulness.

There is ...[text shortened]...
It it not so easy to sweep Christ aside with a little broom of generalities about gods.

We have been betting on this alleged deity for over 2000 years and look what it has gotten us. Absolutely nothing except religious war after religious war, inquisitions (there is an inquisition office in existence as we speak, in Peru), the Islam attacks on ALL other religions, the forced conversions of native people to christanity in several countries, all that stuff in the last 100 years.

Religion should be judged on the worse of its behavior not the occassional handout to street people.

Look at the religious persecution going on as we speak in the US where right wing nutters are trying through ANY means to get creationism taught in a science class as if it were a science which can only confuse young impressionable minds and one result is the US slipping behind the rest of the world in science, where for instance, the US is not the leading producer of scientific papers any more, now the lead goes to China. It is the papers that produce new technologies and in the end uplifting the standard of living for the country with the best papers. The baton has now been passed to China and soon they will be the number one economy in the world, passing the US in another year.

Does any of that get through to you religious types? Does anyone actually care about such issues? Does anyone care the US is going downhill and part of it is the massive campaign to force creationism to be taught in high schools and colleges as if it were an actual science which EVERYONE knows is not even CLOSE to being science, the people pushing for this religious domination of education know this full well, creationism is just the latest tool in the US and other countries to in the end force us back 500 years where the church ruled with an iron hand and any dissent was dealt with by hanging.

You all want that kind of repression again? Those of you who say 'it can't happen here' are incredibly naive if they think we are so advanced right now that could never happen again.

The worse the downturn in events in the world, the more religion will rule. In fact, all that religious repression CAN happen again and I for one will fight it with every breath in my body.

I don't think we can say the same for the religious community.

Originally posted by sonhouse
We have been betting on this alleged deity for over 2000 years and look what it has gotten us. Absolutely nothing except religious war after religious war, inquisitions (there is an inquisition office in existence as we speak, in Peru), the Islam attacks on ALL other religions, the forced conversions of native people to christanity in several countries, all every breath in my body.

I don't think we can say the same for the religious community.

what about all the people atheists killed, why dont you mention them? Khmer rouge, shall we talk about how many people they killed in an attempt to establish an atheist state, shall we? You appear to me to be more prejudiced , biased and quite possibly more ignorant than many of the religionists you are ranting against.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what about all the people atheists killed, why dont you mention them? Khmer rouge, shall we talk about how many people they killed in an attempt to establish an atheist state, shall we? You appear to me to be more prejudiced , biased and quite possibly more ignorant than many of the religionists you are ranting against.

Atheism can be as extreme as any religion.

Originally posted by Kepler
Atheism can be as extreme as any religion.

Yes, but its takes objectivity to realise the fact. 😀

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes, but its takes objectivity to realise the fact. 😀

Obviously I am objective. Or objectionable. Probably both at a guess.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes, but its takes objectivity to realise the fact. 😀

So you realize there is religious extremism. Hey, I am not saying atheists cannot murder but you have to admit for every hundred religious persons, there is one atheist so the amount of damage over the last 2000 years has been in fact caused by religion in one guise or another.

Like I have said for a long time, I want freedom FROM religion. I want to live in a country where if I am gay and need help and go to the local 'SALVATION army', I won't be kicked out BECAUSE I am gay (Which I am not, just sayin) BECAUSE it says in the bible somewhere being gay is against your god.

Or a thousand other slights that happen to people, like the built in bias against women.

BTW, my example of the gay person in real distress, very hungry, homeless, ending up at a Salvation Army home and rejected because he was gay was not a made up story, they refused to give him food or any other help BECAUSE he was gay and they think that an abomination, apparently not caring if a gay person dies, one less gay in the world.

To me that is the epitome of what is wrong with religion, when a person in real trouble comes to a religious order for help and denied help because of an aspect of his personality, that is the most despicable display of bigotry BASED ON NOTHING MORE THAN RELIGIOUS DOGMA I have heard of in a long time.

To me that says volumes about religion. If that is your god speaking, I want NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DESPOT.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So you realize there is religious extremism. Hey, I am not saying atheists cannot murder but you have to admit for every hundred religious persons, there is one atheist so the amount of damage over the last 2000 years has been in fact caused by religion in one guise or another.

Like I have said for a long time, I want freedom FROM religion. I want to l volumes about religion. If that is your god speaking, I want NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DESPOT.

please look at this data and then come back here, worlds greatest atrocities,

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

tell us what you see?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
please look at this data and then come back here, worlds greatest atrocities,

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

tell us what you see?

I see # 4 on the list, the Armenian GENOCIDE based ONLY on religion. You can't pretty that one up by comparing it to the atrocities of ww1 and 2.

I never said everything would be roses without religion, just the rules would even out, you wouldn't HAVE to belong to a certain religion or other just to get a job, like being or not being a Mormon in Utah, USA. There, if you are not a Mormon, you can forget getting a decent job, might as well be a chimney sweep.

That is the repression I want to escape. I can't escape having my nose rubbed in religion right here in my home town, frigging church bells going off on Saturday and Sunday announcing to all and sundry you better be getting your asss to church if you know what is good for you.

Just like when I lived in the middle east, Islam singers announcing the edict to attend mosque every frigging hour of the day, amplified by putridly bad sound systems. Drove me up a wall. So I come home and are subjected to what amounts to the same thing right in my back yard.

BTW, why aren't you railing against the inquisitions? A few hundred years ago if you didn't attend church you went to prison, if you denounced religion, you died, usually by a horrendous death. I don't see you complaining about THOSE atrocities.

Or the forced conversion of Inuit Eskimo native americans or the killing of an entire civilization in South America by the Spanish, ENTIRELY based on the supposed moral superiority of Christianity.

Or the forced conversion of Aborigines in Australia a couple hundred years ago or the AUTOMATIC assumption that Christians are WAY superior to native Americans or native Australians or native Africans.

Or the missionaries who forced Christianity on populations all around the world, meddling in internal affairs of other countries in their so-called god given right to interfere.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I see # 4 on the list, the Armenian GENOCIDE based ONLY on religion. You can't pretty that one up by comparing it to the atrocities of ww1 and 2.

I never said everything would be roses without religion, just the rules would even out, you wouldn't HAVE to belong to a certain religion or other just to get a job, like being or not being a Mormon in Utah, U ll. So I come home and are subjected to what amounts to the same thing right in my back yard.

atrocity is atrocity and the fact is, the religious and non religious have all engaged in it. So someone rings the church bells every Sunday, is it such an annoyance, dont you have double glazing and soundproofing? Cant you listen to some blues with headphones on when they ring them at 11 o'Clock on Sunday morning?

I see you simply want to rant, oh well, dont let me get in your way.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
atrocity is atrocity and the fact is, the religious and non religious have all engaged in it. So someone rings the church bells every Sunday, is it such an annoyance, dont you have double glazing and soundproofing? Cant you listen to some blues with headphones on when they ring them at 11 o'Clock on Sunday morning?

Why the hell should I HAVE to put up soundproofing to insulate me from the religious fervor rampant in my town? The biggest deal in our town are Churches and Bars. More churches than bars and that is saying something to a town full of drunks.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
The worst theists are the judgmental ones. Or maybe the ones who make sweeping generalisations.

Or maybe the ones who strike too close to home.

Originally posted by Kepler
Not my understanding, I don't bother gods and they don't bother me.

I have the task of teaching people about certain aspects of science. I have found that firm belief in the christian god, the one in the bible, can hinder a student's ability to do science. This applies especially to the two I have taught who had similar beliefs to yourself. If a person can ...[text shortened]... ts similarly afflicted by Islam, Judaism, Hinduism or any of the other major world religions.

Then you obviously haven't been around Christians with a brain*.

There are plenty of us out there who believe in God and in science. One does not disavow the other in any way. It is narrow-minded humans of both persuasions who let their programming dictate what they think is real.

Asking that Christians discard their beliefs is amazingly intolerant. You wouldn't be asking anyone else to do the same. Maybe you should focus on how they can dovetail their views with scientific reality.




*Maybe I need to patent this idea. 🙂