24 Aug 08
Originally posted by jaywillForgive me for not paying closer attention in school, but if I'm not mistaken, your Bible references disguise the fact that most of your image of Hell actually comes from another text, one written by a Catholic named Dante Alighieri.
Hello snowinscotland,
I can never talk to you too long. You also wear me out. Don't gloat.
Hell is just the realm of the dead. It is Hades. A place for the departed non-material part of man - saved or unsaved.
To say that everyone who dies goes to hell (Hades) would not be unscriptural IMO. But I know what you mean.
You mean what is t ...[text shortened]... ll get to say to you. I doubt that you have changed your very skeptical atheistic views.
25 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by Wulebgr=============================================
Forgive me for not paying closer attention in school, but if I'm not mistaken, your Bible references disguise the fact that most of your image of Hell actually comes from another text, one written by a Catholic named Dante Alighieri.
Forgive me for not paying closer attention in school, but if I'm not mistaken, your Bible references disguise the fact that most of your image of Hell actually comes from another text, one written by a Catholic named Dante Alighieri.
=============================================
No, you are 100% incorrect in that.
I am neither talking about Dante's Divine Comedy or Paradise Lost or any other liturature. I derive my concepts about these things purely from the Bible.
I was careful to indentify the word Hell with Hades and point out the difference between that and two other terms "the second death" and "the lake of fire"
Had I wanted to be sloppy about it I would never have made that distinction. Instead I would have just gone by the popular conception of "hell" in modern day vanacular.
25 Aug 08
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillReally ? So where is this in the Bible :
.. I derive my concepts about these things purely from the Bible....
1. ..If they refuse Christ as their Leader they go with their leader Satan to co-share his shameful and terrible destiny.
2. Some people don't want to have anything to do with God and His plans. So God has a place for them too. There they have their place where they are occupied with their pains and restricted from furthering their sinning and rebellions.
25 Aug 08
Originally posted by Rajk999It ain't there
Really ? So where is this in the Bible :
1. ..If they refuse Christ as their Leader they go with their leader Satan to co-share his shameful and terrible destiny.
2. Some people don't want to have anything to do with God and His plans. So God has a place for them too. There they have their place where they are occupied with their pains and restricted from furthering their sinning and rebellions.
25 Aug 08
Originally posted by jaywillI'll take a bet--real cash. But first you must prove yourself able and willing to submit to reason and evidence.
No, you are 100% incorrect in that.
Before we begin a debate on what the Bible states regarding hell and hades, we must be clear on two things:
1. Have you read the entire text cover to cover?
2. Does your Bible consist of all 72 books, or only the reduced edition of 66 favored by those that departed from the universal church? Is your edition of Daniel complete?
25 Aug 08
5 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999===================================
Really ? So where is this in the Bible :
1. ..If they refuse Christ as their Leader they go with their leader Satan to co-share his shameful and terrible destiny.
2. Some people don't want to have anything to do with God and His plans. So God has a place for them too. There they have their place where they are occupied with their pains and restricted from furthering their sinning and rebellions.
1. ..If they refuse Christ as their Leader they go with their leader Satan to co-share his shameful and terrible destiny.
=======================================
Jesus specifies that the damnation was prepared first for the Devil and his angels,
"Then He will say to those on His left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)
This should be enough to prove that the eternal fire was prepared not with mankind in mind at first, but the rebellious angelic creature who became Satan and those angels who followed him.
Since the ones among humans follow into what has been prepared for the devil and his angels it follows that they follow their leader to co-share his fate.
This is on the negative side. Now on the positive side Christ is the Firstborn Son of God leading many sons into glory. He is the Leader leading many co-sons into the glorious expression of the Divine Being:
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:10)
Christ is leading many sons. He is the Firstborn Son of God. The many sons are the many brothers who are also God-men.
Again on the positive side we see Christ as the standard model to which the many sons, His brothers, will be conformed to share His destiny:
"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29)
And of course this was according to the powerful prayer of Jesus Christ for His followers to be with Him and share His glory.
"Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)
"And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they ma be one, even as We are one; I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (17:23)
25 Aug 08
Originally posted by jaywillYou said :
.. Jesus specifies that the damnation was prepared first for the Devil and his angels,
[b]"Then He will say to those on His left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)
This should be enough to prove that the eternal fire was prepared not with mankind in mind at first ...[text shortened]... d for the devil and his angels in follows that they follow their leader to co-share his fate. [/b]
"..if they refuse Christ .... then they go with Satan to ..... etc"
Please show where in the Bible has that.
In other words ... if you refuse Christ then you are punished together with Satan.
25 Aug 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Wulebgr=====================================
I'll take a bet--real cash. But first you must prove yourself able and willing to submit to reason and evidence.
Before we begin a debate on what the Bible states regarding hell and hades, we must be clear on two things:
1. Have you read the entire text cover to cover?
2. Does your Bible consist of all 72 books, or only the reduced edition of 66 favored by those that departed from the universal church? Is your edition of Daniel complete?
I'll take a bet--real cash. But first you must prove yourself able and willing to submit to reason and evidence.
Before we begin a debate on what the Bible states regarding hell and hades, we must be clear on two things:
1. Have you read the entire text cover to cover?
2. Does your Bible consist of all 72 books, or only the reduced edition of 66 favored by those that departed from the universal church? Is your edition of Daniel complete?
==========================================
In my post on this subject there are two catagories of ideas. There are those which I plainly have Scripture for. And then I was careful to say that the following were my opinions.
Concerning the things of which I said that they were my opinion was this matter:
I said that it was my opinion that the lost in pewrdition will be so occupied by thier punishment as to be restricted from sinning further.
Now that I may not be able to easily present a passage for. However, I was careful to give you a heads up that this was my opinion.
Concerning the other matters - are you going to demand that I spell out the passages which teach just as much?
Yes the canon I speak of contains 66 books. A discussion of the bible canon I don't think I will pursue now.
One caveat: Though I said that Hell or Hades was a recepticle for the non-material componant of man when he dies, there is at least one passage which shows some people descending alive down into Hell in the Old Testament in the incident with Korah and his rebellious company.
They went down alive into the earth into Sheol. Sheol = Hell = Hades.
25 Aug 08
2 edits
===================================
Have you read the entire text cover to cover?
====================================
Yes, I have read the entire 66 books of the Bible, every chapter consecutively, about twice.
I have been reading and studying this marvelous book seriously since 1972.
25 Aug 08
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999============================
You said :
"..if they refuse Christ .... then they go with Satan to ..... etc"
Please show where in the Bible has that.
In other words ... if you refuse Christ then you are punished together with Satan.
You said :
"..if they refuse Christ .... then they go with Satan to ..... etc"
Please show where in the Bible has that.
In other words ... if you refuse Christ then you are punished together with Satan.
====================================
Here is the passage I would draw your attention to first:
" ... rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire, rendering vengence to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength when He comes to be glorified in His saints ... " (2 Thess. 1:7-10)
We should notice here that at least two catagories of victims are seen here:
1.) Those who do not know God
2.) Those who do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.
"those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."
The second catagory should be clear as to mean those who refuse Jesus Christ to be their Lord / Savior. They did not obey the gospel to believe in Jesus the Lord.
25 Aug 08
Originally posted by jaywillOnly twice ? No wonder you scarcely know the Bible, and instead you fabricate foolish statements designed to mislead those who dont know.
[b]===================================
Have you read the entire text cover to cover?
====================================
Yes, I have read the entire 66 books of the Bible, every chapter consecutively, about twice.
I have been reading and studying this marvelous book seriously since 1972.[/b]
25 Aug 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999=======================
Only twice ? No wonder you scarcely know the Bible, and instead you fabricate foolish statements designed to mislead those who dont know.
those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
=====================================
Excuse me sir. That was consecutively. That does not count the intense study of books in a non consecutive manner.
We read the word all the time. We sing it. I mean whole chapters we put to song and sing. We memorize it. And we turn it into prayer.
We eat the words of the Bible daily.
I said at least twice I read through in a consecutive manner. Whole books I have read through scores of time.
I can't count how many times I have read through the New Testament.
25 Aug 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999You did the easy part. You made the assertion. Now do the work of giving me a solid example of my misleading.
Only twice ? No wonder you scarcely know the Bible, and instead you fabricate foolish statements designed to mislead those who dont know.
Look, You did not even know that passage that said that God looks upon the affairs of men. You said it was foolish for a Christian to think so.
So the deceiver is Rajk999. You are the one leading people astray with your nonsensical statements.
And you never retracted your error. Catch me and prove me in an error and at least I will declare that I made a mistake. Will you do the same?
I haven't seen it yet. You still think God does not look upon the affairs of men?
25 Aug 08
Originally posted by jaywillI never said that.
You did the easy part. You made the assertion. Now do the work of giving me a solid example of my misleading.
Look, [b]You did not even know that passage that said that God looks upon the affairs of men. You said it was foolish for a Christian to think so.
So the deceiver is Rajk999. You are the one leading people astray with your nonsensical s ...[text shortened]... the same?
I haven't seen it yet. You still think God does not look upon the affairs of men?[/b]
Re-read the posts.
Of course I know God looks at the affairs of men but not exclusively. Note I said 'us alone'.
The problem with that issue is that you said that " it is through man that God can accomplish His eternal purpose."
.. Which is not in the Bible.
25 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999This is what you wrote:
I never said that.
Re-read the posts.
Of course I know God looks at the affairs of men but not exclusively. Note I said 'us alone'.
The problem with that issue is that you said that " it is through man that God can accomplish His eternal purpose."
.. Which is not in the Bible.
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Any Christian that thinks God is in the heavens and spends His time watching over us and us alone, is stupid.
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Notice the words "spends His time watching over us and us alone"
You said " OVER US AND US ALONE." "Us alone" is the add on.
Are you now trying a slippery trict of saying you did NOT say that it is foolish to think that God watches us?
This backpeddle with not save your ignorant statement. I proved to you that the Christian has plenty of ground in the Bible to believe that God watches over us.
My focus was on the part preceeding the "and" which is a separate concept in itself. God does watch the affairs of men according to one of at least 1000 other places. He fashioned thier hearts and observed their deeds Psalm 33 said.
Face it. You wrote something ignorant of the Bible in the extreme.