27 Aug 08
Originally posted by jaywilljaywill: We have all been hoodwinked.
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The word economy in means "household administration" or "house law". And "fullness of the times" means that all the ages of time in the universe will ultimately come to a climax in this adminstration in which everything is headed up in Christ.
Everyone, every living thing, every leaf on every tree, every mol ...[text shortened]... , inseperable love of God for His people, perfect righteousness, endless beauty.[/b]
You far more than others.
27 Aug 08
Originally posted by jaywillAre you saying that Christ and God are mingled to the point where they cannot be considered separate entities/beings. They therefore cannot think, act on their own?
Rajk999,
Whether you agree now or not, please explain to me what I just wrote.
What is it to [b]mingle two or more things together?
In this teaching, what is Jesus Christ the mingling of ?
Then if you must disagree.[/b]
If thats what youare saying then I disagree.
27 Aug 08
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Originally posted by jaywillAll that you have quoted and explained points to a basic fact of all Chriistianity - God has created an eternal purpose with mankind through Jesus.
Now, Here is a portion of His prayer to demonstrate that He (Jesus the Son of God) requests of His Father that His saved people become like Him:
[b]" Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that the also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world ...[text shortened]... to the [b]"eternal purpose which He [God] made in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Eph. 3:11)[/b][/b]
How does that eliminate other purposes that God can have with other beings, and what purpose did God have before man arrived ?
27 Aug 08
Originally posted by Rajk999The matter of the Trinity is very mysterious. One lives in the Other. They are distinct but not separate.
Are you saying that Christ and God are mingled to the point where they cannot be considered separate entities/beings. They therefore cannot think, act on their own?
If thats what youare saying then I disagree.
Jesus had to be a man like us in order to suffer death. Yet He also had to be God Himself to make the effectiveness of the death have eternal significance.
He had to be a man to bleed. He had to be God to make that blood eternally powerful to cleanse us all of our sins.
In fact the book of Acts says that it was God's blood. And this could only be possible if the incarnation of God into a man is true:
" ... shepherd the church of God, which He obtained through His own blood." (Acts 20:28b)
This matter of the Triune God is very mysterious. But we can experience Him and enjoy Him.
27 Aug 08
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Originally posted by jaywillThen you are saying that Christ and God is essentially ONE ENTITY, and they are unable to act individually ?
The matter of the Trinity is very mysterious. One lives in the Other. They are distinct but not separate.
Jesus had to be a man like us in order to suffer death. Yet He also had to be God Himself to make the effectiveness of the death have eternal significance.
He had to be a man to bleed. He had to be God to make that blood eternally powerful to
This matter of the Triune God is very mysterious. But we can experience Him and enjoy Him.
Please try to stick to the point without rambling too much .. 🙂
27 Aug 08
Originally posted by jaywillI have to be honest with you here. I have heard many many people talk about Jesus' blood and its clensing power but I cant understand the concept at all. Are sins like dirt, sticking to us? Are sins entities? Items on a list? How does Jesus clense them away? Surely if a sin is an offence against God, then the only cure is for God to forgive us. I have never really understood the whole alternative sacrifice thing, like God is bribing himself to spare the rod.
He had to be a man to bleed. He had to be God to make that blood eternally powerful to cleanse us all of our sins.
I tried to get knightmeister to explain it to me once but I couldn't seem to grasp the concept. Can you do better?
27 Aug 08
Originally posted by Rajk999==========================================
All that you have quoted and explained points to a basic fact of all Chriistianity - God has created an eternal purpose with mankind through Jesus.
How does that eliminate other purposes that God can have with other beings, and what purpose did God have before man arrived ?
How does that eliminate other purposes that God can have with other beings, and what purpose did God have before man arrived ?
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The pre-Adamic world was also a part of this plan. It was made complicated though because of the rebellion of the creature who became Satan.
I do not understand everything about the pre-Adamic world. But I am sure that it was in line for the same purpose that I have discribed for you briefly from Ephesians.
I do not know to what extent the top creature who became Satan knew of God's plan. His evil way seems always to rush ahead of God and try to do what God is going to do. He has no original idea. He usually tries to rush ahead of God's work and create a counterfeit of that work.
Anyway, the apostle tells us that the mystery of God's will was hidden from generations of people until the New Testament time:
"The mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from generations but now has been manifested to His saints; to whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27)
The mystery of God hidden from generations but now revealed is for God to dispense Christ into people. Then He within them is the seed and hope of the coming blossoming glory - the manifestation of the eternal divine life.
27 Aug 08
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Originally posted by twhitehead==========================================
I have to be honest with you here. I have heard many many people talk about Jesus' blood and its clensing power but I cant understand the concept at all. Are sins like dirt, sticking to us? Are sins entities? Items on a list? How does Jesus clense them away? Surely if a sin is an offence against God, then the only cure is for God to forgive us. I have nev ...[text shortened]... tmeister to explain it to me once but I couldn't seem to grasp the concept. Can you do better?
I have heard many many people talk about Jesus' blood and its clensing power but I cant understand the concept at all.
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Probably you heard them speak from personal experience.
When you bbring your sins under the blood of Jesus you have an unspeakable peace of heart. Your conscience mysteriously assures you that everything is okay between you and God.
Before you felt uneasy, not quite sure if those matters will come up again, wishing that this or that never happened. You may wish you could change the past and get the blemish off of your conscience.
When you say "Lord Jesus, Your precious blood cleanses me from all sins." there is an unspeakable and I would even say supernatural peace which pervades your inner being.
This is a peace you never had. You know within that between you and God Almighty, there is no problem.
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Are sins like dirt, sticking to us? Are sins entities? Items on a list?
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The sins we commit are like a stain on our conscience. Our conscience does not argue with us. It is a stain on our conscience and a stain before God.
The blood of Jesus takes care of both. It is not necessary to visualize blood. It is not necessary to imagine blood washing over you. All that is really needed is to believe into Christ and accept His finished work.
In the Passover the destroying angel came through Egypt. If the family had the blood on the doorpost outside the destroying angel would pass over and spare that house from judgment.
The blood was on the outside for the angel to see. In the same way the blood of Jesus that God would passover you in judgment is mainly for Him to see, not mainly for you to see.
It is however for you to believe that Christ died for you and if your Passover Lamb. He is not only the Passover Lamb He is the entire Passover.
The destroying angel did not stop to look inside the house to see what kind of people were in there. That was not necessary. The angel only needed to see the blood on the lintel of the doorpost.
In the same way, you do not need to be introspective. Introspection does not cleanse you from sin. The blood of Jesus cleanses you from sin.
I don't know if this helps. But it is our part to believe into Christ even if we cannot fully explain. The effectiveness of the blood of Christ comes WITH Christ. But it is good to know the full truth.
But being in Christ, His blood is effective, even if you have not been aware of how it works. Being in Christ still brings an inner peace that you are okay with God.
27 Aug 08
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How does Jesus clense them away? Surely if a sin is an offence against God, then the only cure is for God to forgive us. I have never really understood the whole alternative sacrifice thing, like God is bribing himself to spare the rod.
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Forgiveness from God is not free. He wants to forgive. But He does so in a way which maintains His righteous standard and upholds His dignity. There is no forgiveness without the shedding of the blood of Jesus.
The sins were judged in the death of Christ. That is the contract that we are commanded to accept.
A thief wants money. He doesn't care how he gets it as long as he gets it. The procedure does not matter. The way or method means nothing to him. As long as he gets the money everything is alright.
We are like that with God. We don't care for the method. As long as we get saved from the wrath of God we don't care about the procedure. How we get forgiven - we don't care. Just as long as we get forgiven we care nothing for the procedure.
God is not that way. He will forgive us surely. But He will do it in a way which matches His glory, manifests His holiness, declares His righteousness. He will not give us "back door " merchandise. Neither will He forgive us in a way in which someone could declare that He played loose favorites in an unrighteous way.
His procedure, His method must maintain His holy nature and manifest His absolute righteousness. We do not care for the method. God cares for the method.
And the method is that in the perfectly Righteous One - Jesus Christ, you and I were judged. This is the contract that He demands that we accept.
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I tried to get knightmeister to explain it to me once but I couldn't seem to grasp the concept. Can you do better?
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Maybe I cannot do better. I can talk about it more and more. Maybe I cannot do better.
I would not wait for someone who can do better and better and better. This could be a trick of Satan. For salvation is not to he who can explaineth but to he who believes.
I don't mind talking about the blood. I have much to say about the blood of Jesus. But I do not promise you that I can meet your requirement that there is left no more mystery about it. It is mysterious to me also.
27 Aug 08
Originally posted by WulebgrYou mean, such a basic thing as Trinity is totally made up? Not a shred of a reference in the bible?
Solve this mystery: where in the Bible is this word trinity?
Oh, I honestly thought that the whole christianity was build upon the bible... And now it turns up to be, well... 😕
27 Aug 08
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Originally posted by twhitehead"We have remarked that all victims, even the animal ones, bear a certain resemblance to the object they replace; otherwise the violent impulse would remain unsatisfied. But this resemblance must not be carried to the exreme of complete assimilation, or it would lead to disastrous confusion. In the case of animal victims the difference is always clear, and no such confusion is possible."
I have to be honest with you here. I have heard many many people talk about Jesus' blood and its clensing power but I cant understand the concept at all. Are sins like dirt, sticking to us? Are sins entities? Items on a list? How does Jesus clense them away? Surely if a sin is an offence against God, then the only cure is for God to forgive us. I have nev ...[text shortened]... tmeister to explain it to me once but I couldn't seem to grasp the concept. Can you do better?
Rene Girard, Violence and the Sacred, p. 11.
27 Aug 08
Originally posted by jaywillSeems as if I remember Watchman Nee saying much the same thing about this unspeakable ataraxia. He, too, then went on to speak (or write) at length in any case, although he didn't stutter at the outset.
When you bbring your sins under the blood of Jesus you have an unspeakable peace of heart. Your conscience mysteriously assures you that everything is okay between you and God.
27 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by WulebgrBrother Watchman Nee is a teacher of mine.
Seems as if I remember Watchman Nee saying much the same thing about this unspeakable ataraxia. He, too, then went on to speak (or write) at length in any case, although he didn't stutter at the outset.
I would recommend that you read him rather than read me any day.
www.watchmannee.org