13 Feb 13
Originally posted by FMFits now been discredited and is therefore irrelevant. how is an irrelevancy on topic, that is correct, its not.
You brought Spitzer into this, not me.
[b]From the 2004 article you cited: "Dr Robert Spitzer, by then a senior professor of psychiatry at Columbia University, wanted to know whether it was possible for homosexuals to change. Could therapy turn gays straight? Late last year, Spitzer's study was published. And his answer was: yes."
From the article P ...[text shortened]... change. And that’s quite an admission on my part."
This is completely on-topic, surely?
13 Feb 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt's the only "evidence" you have presented so far. Are you retracting it?
nothing, its irrelevant, i dont engage in irrelevancies, again the title of the thread is , help for homosexuals. I as unaware that it had been discredited.
If you admit it has been discredited, what evidence do you have to support your apparent assertion that therapy or some other kind of "help" can turn gays straight?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI don't believe there is an specific reference to homosexuals or gays.
k, I am going to have to spell it out. The present ideology is that ones sexuality is immutable (cannot change), the Bible teaches quite the opposite and states that yes indeed, person who were inclined towards persons of the same sex do and can change. This is the first point of encouragement, for the person wishing to bring his or her life into h ...[text shortened]... ave been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.
Originally posted by FMFI suggest you read this, it is far too extensive for me to reproduce accurately,
It's the only "evidence" you have presented so far. Are you retracting it?
If you admit it has been discredited, what evidence do you have to support your apparent assertion that therapy or some other kind of "help" can turn gays straight?
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/PDFs/Ch12.pdf
Assisted change
If considerable swings in sexual orientation toward OSA can happen without therapeutic intervention, it follows they might go further or faster if they are therapeutically assisted in a motivated person. The first recorded instance of assisted change may be in the New Testament. In I Corinthians 6:9ff, Paul, writing to the Corinthians, said about homosexuals (the word translated homosexuals
is arsenokoitai in the Greek, meaning “male/coitus&rdquo😉, “… that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” They changed, and it is reasonable to believe—given the emphasis in Christianity on inward attitude rather than merely outward behaviours—that the change was not merely behavioural. From the known dates of Paul’s missionary activity in Corinth and his first letter we may infer that any change occurred in a time span significantly less than four years and possibly within the 18 months of his stay there.
Assisted change has been attempted since last century, using many techniques, including hypnosis, aversion therapy, behavioural therapy, psychoanalysis; some methods rather brutal, some a lot more successful than others. At an early stage in his research Kinsey “recommended a pattern of treatment to those who wished
to change.”9 In prescribing this course to those who wanted to take it, Kinsey always warned that “he had known it to be successful in many cases, but he had also seen it fail.” But it seems whatever the therapy used there was always some change toward heterosexuality as reported by the following therapists.
Reuben Fine, Director of the New York Centre for Psychoanalytic Training, remarked,
“If patients are motivated to change, a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals (become) heterosexuals.”27 Bernard Berkowitz and Mildred Newman: “We’ve found that a homosexual who really wants to change has a very good chance of doing so.”28 Edmund Bergler concluded after analysis and consultations with 600 homosexuals over thirty years: “Homosexuality has an excellent prognosis in psychiatric/psychoanalytic treatment of one to two years duration…provided the patient really wishes to change. Cure denotes not bi-sexuality, but real and unfaked heterosexuality.” 29
After twenty years of comparative study of homosexuals and heterosexuals, Irving Bieber wrote: “Reversal [homosexual to heterosexual] estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%.”30 Bieber followed some of his psychoanalytical clients for as long as ten years and found they had remained exclusively heterosexual.31 Charles Socarides said: “There is…sufficient evidence that in a majority of cases homosexuality can be successfully treated by psychoanalysis.”32 Scientists Masters and Johnson, after work with sixty-seven homosexuals and fourteen lesbians who requested reversion therapy, reported a success rate of 71.6% after a follow-up of six years. Although they have been criticized for serious flaws in their post-therapy follow-up and assessment, it seems certain they produced many real and lasting reversions.33 Psychologist, Gerard van den Aardweg, after twenty years research into treatment of homosexuality, stated, “Two thirds reached a stage where homosexual feelings were occasional impulses at most, or completely absent.”34 Psychiatrist William Wilson claimed a 55%success rate in treating homosexuals who were professing Christians.35 According to Robert Kronemeyer, a clinical psychologist, “About 80% of homosexual men and women in syntonic therapy have been able to free themselves, and achieve a healthy and satisfying heterosexual adjustment.”36
Ex-gay support groups say hundreds of homosexuals have moved significantly toward a heterosexual orientation as a result of Christian commitment and the specialized support and services of “ex-gay” groups. UK sexuality researcher West, summarizing the mainstream material up to the seventies3 says that behavioural techniques appeared to have the best rate of success (never less than 30) Although psychoanalysis claimed a great deal of success, the average rate seemed to be about 25% (but 50% of bisexuals achieved exclusive heterosexuality.)
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWould you say that http://www.mygenes.co.nz is a scientifically impartial source? Looks like you've been trawling again for something, anything, let others read it, then - if the wheels fall off - you'll say "I didn't author it" and if you're asked to take some responsibility for the "evidence" you cite, you'll say "it's not about me".
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/PDFs/Ch12.pdf
I note that N.E.Whitehead, Ph.D, is an academic often cited and discussed at http://www.stormfront.org
13 Feb 13
Originally posted by FMFI am interested in his findings, not the man himself.
Would you say that http://www.mygenes.co.nz is a scientifically impartial source? Looks like you've been trawling again for something, anything, let others read it, then - if the wheels fall off - you'll say "I didn't author it" and if you're asked to take some responsibility for the "evidence" you cite, you'll say "it's not about me".
I note that N.E.Whitehead, Ph.D, is an academic often cited and discussed at http://www.stormfront.org
Originally posted by FMFso just to be clear are you saying that a person cannot be assisted to change their sexual preferences?
Would you say that http://www.mygenes.co.nz is a scientifically impartial source? Looks like you've been trawling again for something, anything, let others read it, then - if the wheels fall off - you'll say "I didn't author it" and if you're asked to take some responsibility for the "evidence" you cite, you'll say "it's not about me".
I note that N.E.Whitehead, Ph.D, is an academic often cited and discussed at http://www.stormfront.org
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt reads like a political polemic, or a religionist polemic, not a peer reviewed scientific paper. It mentions the New Testament's Corinthians 6:9ff and "Lord Jesus Christ". Have you got any scientific research that doesn't mention "Lord Jesus Christ"?
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/PDFs/Ch12.pdf
13 Feb 13
Originally posted by FMFit mentions a plethora of studies which conclude that assisted change is possible, are you now disputing that assisted change is possible?
It reads like a political polemic, or a religioist polemic, not a peer reviewed scientific paper. It mentions the New Testament's Corinthians 6:9ff and "Lord Jesus Christ". Have you got any scientific research that doesn't mention "Lord Jesus Christ"?
13 Feb 13
Originally posted by FMFi told you I am interested in your introduction of irrelevancies, your proclivity for attacking the personality holds no sway with me. So lets ask you again, are you stating that assisted change is impossible?
People at http://www.stormfront.org are interested in his findings too.
13 Feb 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThanks for lending gay men a hand. 😕
Who want to live in accordance with Biblical principles. How would you help someone bring their life into harmony with Biblical principles? Clearly persons were able to do so in the past.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) .What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, no ...[text shortened]... ave been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.