Spirituality
23 May 08
26 May 08
Originally posted by SushillI don't know why it is always me that brings this up and not theists, but for a theist, death by war is not significantly worse than death by natural causes and neither is an event that must be universally labeled 'evil' or 'terrible'. If we are going to talk about 'standing by while people die' then start with infant deaths and malaria. The Spanish flu killed more people than the Great war. Surely if God dished out an optional flu vaccine it would not severely impact my free will?
Who can believe in a god that stood by and did nothing when 6 million people were exterminated?
26 May 08
Originally posted by Conrau KIt does when you are an omniscient creator God. He (apparently) created the world in just such a way that Hitler would be born, and Hitler would murder all those people. He could have created it any other way, or intervened to prevent this, but he did not. He allowed it to happen in just the way he foresaw. He was certainly complicit.
How does foresight entail mandate?
26 May 08
Originally posted by PsychoPawnGod did warn us, in the Hebrew version in Duet. every 150th letter spells out Hilter holocaust, and other facts I can not remember. Also remember God Judges. He gave us free will. Does the Bible not say thou shall not kill. God will judge us by our actions.
You are right that it doesn't follow that it is necessarily his plan, but it does bring up the question of why does an omniscient caring and moral god stand back while that kind of thing happens.
26 May 08
Originally posted by realeyezHahahahahahaha
God did warn us, in the Hebrew version in Duet. every 150th letter spells out Hilter holocaust, and other facts I can not remember. Also remember God Judges. He gave us free will. Does the Bible not say thou shall not kill. God will judge us by our actions.
26 May 08
Originally posted by realeyezAnd the second book of the Lord of the Rings is called "The Two Towers" and on page 911 every 17th letter spells out "N e w Y o r k".
God did warn us, in the Hebrew version in Duet. every 150th letter spells out Hilter holocaust, and other facts I can not remember. Also remember God Judges. He gave us free will. Does the Bible not say thou shall not kill. God will judge us by our actions.
Yet I don't remember anyone evacuating in advance as a result.
A warning that can only be read after the fact is not in fact a warning (or even a prophesy).
I am also curious how "Hilter holocaust" both written in English letters can be spelt out of a Hebrew text.
26 May 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadWell, “Hitler” could be hay-tav(or tet)-lamed-reish, with the appropriate vowel points (which you’d also have to count, I guess—but they are not in the original Hebrew). And “holocaust” might be ayin-lamed-hay (“ola”, the word usually translated as burnt-offering); although the Nazi holocaust is called the shoa.
And the second book of the Lord of the Rings is called "The Two Towers" and on page 911 every 17th letter spells out "N e w Y o r k".
Yet I don't remember anyone evacuating in advance as a result.
A warning that can only be read after the fact is not in fact a warning (or even a prophesy).
I am also curious how "Hilter holocaust" both written in English letters can be spelt out of a Hebrew text.
In any event, it seems there are not enough letters in the Hebrew.
26 May 08
Originally posted by vistesdThanks. As I expected, a further layer of flexibility. The Bible contains enough text that if you allow a couple of layers of flexibility (such as picking every nth letter in a particular Hebrew version), you can find any historical event - or in fact anything you like - in it.
Well, “Hitler” could be hay-tav(or tet)-lamed-reish, with the appropriate vowel points (which you’d also have to count, I guess—but they are not in the original Hebrew). And “holocaust” might be ayin-lamed-hay (“ola”, the word usually translated as burnt-offering); although the Nazi holocaust is called the shoa.
In any event, it seems there are not enough letters in the Hebrew.
Luckily for us, The Lord of the Rings is in English so you don't need to learn Hebrew to study all the wonderful prophesy that it contains. A couple of hours on a computer and I am sure we can find 'Global warming' in there.
26 May 08
Originally posted by PsychoPawnSo let's say he did intervene , then where does he stop ? Does he prevent the Holocaust but then leave a baby to die in Africa? Does he eliminate all evil or only just some of it? What would it mean for the world if all evil and suffering was eliminated ? Would it be the end of the world?
You are right that it doesn't follow that it is necessarily his plan, but it does bring up the question of why does an omniscient caring and moral god stand back while that kind of thing happens.
26 May 08
Originally posted by realeyezBible codes are pretty weak evidence. You could probably find a similar code in Moby Dick and argue that Melville predicted it.
God did warn us, in the Hebrew version in Duet. every 150th letter spells out Hilter holocaust, and other facts I can not remember. Also remember God Judges. He gave us free will. Does the Bible not say thou shall not kill. God will judge us by our actions.
It's pretty easy to come up with predictions of past events.
26 May 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterGood question. I don't think god exists so it isn't a real problem for me to come to terms with that question.
So let's say he did intervene , then where does he stop ? Does he prevent the Holocaust but then leave a baby to die in Africa? Does he eliminate all evil or only just some of it? What would it mean for the world if all evil and suffering was eliminated ? Would it be the end of the world?
Why does god allow such great evil without lifting a finger to stop it?
27 May 08
Originally posted by realeyezBy the way, assassinations foretold in Moby Dick:
God did warn us, in the Hebrew version in Duet. every 150th letter spells out Hilter holocaust, and other facts I can not remember. Also remember God Judges. He gave us free will. Does the Bible not say thou shall not kill. God will judge us by our actions.
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/codes/moby.html
It's amazing! Melville was a regular nostradamus! 😉
27 May 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterIts amazing how often I hear that ridiculous argument. It essentially says:
So let's say he did intervene , then where does he stop ?
"You cant do a little without going all the way, if all the way is bad then you mustn't do a little."
That might be partially true if you are 19 and cant control your hormones after kissing a girl, but one would think that God is a bit more mature.
I came across it recently on a discussion of eugenics. The argument was that if you stopped murder then 'where would it stop?' would lead to stopping all freedoms - therefore stopping murder is wrong.
But if we use the same argument for policing we should come to the same conclusion surely? If we intervene in a crime then where does the policeman stop? Pretty soon the police will stop you from every conceivable crime. Soon you wont be allowed to commit adultery, lie or even cross the road without looking both ways. So to avoid this terrible police state in which no free will exists we should abolish the police force.
Of course the whole argument relies on another ridiculous claim: sin is a good thing. Essentially the argument is that we must have free will (no reasoning is given as to why), and for free will to exist you must have the option to sin. Further you must regularly exercise that option and actually sin.
I guess God would have no-one to judge if he didn't set tests. The Bible is full of stories of God 'testing' people that he supposedly knew were righteous.
27 May 08
Originally posted by scottishinnzAn astronomer has the ability to predict an eclipse with 99.9999999% accuracey. Being omnicient would mean we have no free will, and that our acts are predetermined by an outside force. God didn't make hitler do what he did, nor did he make people collaberate with the nazis. That was a choice humans make. Horrible choices happen everyday. People abuse children, corporations and governments oppress and enslave the poor. God has given us the tools to solve these problems, but too many people think "its not my problem" and ignore whats happening around them. Is it God's fault that you got a speeding ticket? After all he knew it would happen, and could have spared you. Gte the picture?
Indeed. So why don't you just get on and answer the question posed then?
Is God not omniscient?
I am broken hearted by the callousness of humans. That fact that children go to bed hungry, under the stars, with no hope for the future saddens me deeply. Our world is a rich tapestry of joy, happiness, hate, anger, love, sufferring, pain, healing, etc....The badness makes the goodness that much better by comparison.