Hitler: Part of God's Plan?

Originally posted by knightmeister
It most definitely is torture for him to watch us kill each other and I'm sure there are many times when God is tempted to end the universe there and then and be done with it. However, he has committed himself to free will which logically neccesitates a certain amount of risk of humans doing things he doesn't like.

See how you keep getting tied up in your own logical inconsistency.
God cannot 'end the universe' based on his knowledge that is based on the fact that it exists. If he ended it he would no-longer know what happened in it - thus changing his own memories thus leaving him a little perplexed. A few more universes later and he ends up a raving lunatic as portrayed in the OT.

Once you have understood that a committment to freedom logically means a certain degree of suffering/sin cannot be ruled out then you will have made the first step. The second question after this is how much potential suffering /sin is an acceptable risk? Create only slightly free beings and controlling most of their actions would be a safer universe less likely to result in things like the holocaust but there would also be a cost to freedom of choice and giving man a sense of responsibility for the world in which he lives.
Man does not have a responsibility for the world in which he lives. We are powerless to prevent the vast majority of suffering which is not in fact a result of free will at all.
As for your underlying assumption that freedom of will trumps everything, how do you justify that? You certainly don't believe it. Why does God?

What also needs considering is that God's priorities are not neccessarily preserving life or avoiding earthly suffering. He sees the greater picture of eternity and souls. Jesus himself said that there are fates worse than death and that death is not to be feared.
I have often suggested that argument. You are one of the few Christians I have ever heard utter it. It doesn't however solve the problem altogether.

Originally posted by twhitehead
See how you keep getting tied up in your own logical inconsistency.
God cannot 'end the universe' based on his knowledge that is based on the fact that it exists. If he ended it he would no-longer know what happened in it - thus changing his own memories thus leaving him a little perplexed. A few more universes later and he ends up a raving lunatic as po ...[text shortened]... few Christians I have ever heard utter it. It doesn't however solve the problem altogether.

"God cannot 'end the universe' based on his knowledge that is based on the fact that it exists. If he ended it he would no-longer know what happened in it - thus changing his own memories thus leaving him a little perplexed." ---whitey-------

.....duh? I meant he could end the universe at this point in time so that there would be no 2009. I see no reason to assume that he would not know about such a universe. Infact such a universe for him could be said to always exist in a way , eternally , it would just come to an end for us in time.

Originally posted by knightmeister
b) not a bad idea but still has the same problems as a) and how would God "make" him better at Art without infringing his free will ? Would he force him to draw? Hitler obvious had some talent that he chose not to pursue himself , should God have taken away that choice?

You seem to be under the ridiculous delusion that we are who we want to be and chose our attributes by our free will.

As for killing Hitler, it would not be the first time God has killed someone, so one is forced to ask why Hitler gets off the hook.

This whole thread seems to be ignoring the obvious fact that God does not need to know the future to prevent the holocaust. He merely needs to see where it is going early on and do something about it. He did so in the past (Noah, Moses etc) so whats changed? The Jews of Germany were clearly less important than the Jews of Egypt.

Originally posted by twhitehead
See how you keep getting tied up in your own logical inconsistency.
God cannot 'end the universe' based on his knowledge that is based on the fact that it exists. If he ended it he would no-longer know what happened in it - thus changing his own memories thus leaving him a little perplexed. A few more universes later and he ends up a raving lunatic as po ...[text shortened]... few Christians I have ever heard utter it. It doesn't however solve the problem altogether.

I don't think you have addressed the essential problem that God has in the sense that if he allows some freedom of will to exist in men then there is always an element of risk that some men will turn away from him or sin or cause suffering.
He could control everyone's will to the extent where he could make sure no-one sinned or hurt anyone else , but that would be a universe of automatons. The more he lets us go the more risk of something that he might not like happening in his universe. Freedom of will and sin/suffering are related to each other in this way.
Step one is to understand this relationship. Have you at least got to step one or are you under the illusion that God can create beings who are really free to choose but have no risk at all of going astray? You may think such a universe possible , I think it's an illusion.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You seem to be under the ridiculous delusion that we are who we want to be and chose our attributes by our free will.

As for killing Hitler, it would not be the first time God has killed someone, so one is forced to ask why Hitler gets off the hook.

This whole thread seems to be ignoring the obvious fact that God does not need to know the future to ...[text shortened]... s etc) so whats changed? The Jews of Germany were clearly less important than the Jews of Egypt.

The problem is if God intervenes everytime he suspects that he can "see where it is going" where does he stop? If he committed himself to a certain type of freedom in the universe he may have felt that it was wrong to retract it. In any case if he had killed Hitler at birth he would not know Hitler's future so there would be nothing to prevent. Maybe he knew that there were forces at work in Germany that were bound to result in war and genocide , afterall Hitler didn't do it on his own , maybe God should have gone on a killing spree in Germany? Maybe Hitler's soul was so so precious to him that he wanted to give him every last chance to come to him.
Who knows , maybe God witnessed to Hitler in his bunker and begged him not to kill himself but to repent? Perhaps he thought that all that suffering was worth it to try and bring Hitler to heaven and not kill him. Afterall , he knows we all have to die anyway.This will be an unpalatable idea for many but God's love is such that he never gives up on any individual . To him death is not the problem , nor suffering , he can overcome both , getting someone to freely choose him is the hard part for him.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I don't think you have addressed the essential problem that God has in the sense that if he allows some freedom of will to exist in men then there is always an element of risk that some men will turn away from him or sin or cause suffering.

I don't think that you have addressed the essential problem that heaven (or whatever after life you believe in) is better than life on earth. Thus either:
1. There is no free will and it isn't really better.
or
2. There can be a better place with free will.

I cannot see how my death is a good thing. Either there is another universe I will go to after my death with all the same problems or better for God to have started me out in an alternate and better universe or better for God to keep me in this universe and alive. You simply cannot simultaneously claim that we are in the best possible universe and admit that our time here is limited and claim that God is good.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The problem is if God intervenes everytime he suspects that he can "see where it is going" where does he stop?

Please don't give me the 'where does he stop' argument. It is pathetic and you are better than that.

Originally posted by knightmeister
To him death is not the problem , nor suffering , he can overcome both , getting someone to freely choose him is the hard part for him.

At last we are getting somewhere. All that murdering and stuff Hitler was up to was not really so bad in the big picture. It didn't stop you from bringing Hitler up as the ultimate 'bad guy' in your free will threads. It turns out the the truly ultimate bad guy is the one freely does not choose God. Sadly there is no such thing as 'choosing God' so the whole argument falls flat on its face.

Originally posted by knightmeister
a) would most certainly affect Hitler's free will and also begs the question "if Hitler never existed then how could God know about Hitler in 1939-45? " Killing Hitler in order to prevent a future which has already happened is illogical and a time paradox. Either 1939-45 happens or it doesn't.

b) not a bad idea but still has the same problems as a) ...[text shortened]... inly violate his free will I think . I have absolutely no idea why you think it might not.

a) would not have affected Hitler's free will. The Hitler sperm never chose to be the fastest swimmer. A large part of which sperm makes it to the egg is chance. Since Hitler would not have existed, it could not affect his free will. Likewise, time paradoxes, we can only assume, are not a problem for an omnipotent being. Perhaps you think God is impotent to change the future though??? However, if you want to pursue the free will argument, allowing the Hitler sperm to make it to the egg destroyed the chances of billions of other potential people and directly led to the loss of free will of six million Jews when they were brutally murdered.

Still want to argue that point?

b) Hitler has some talent, largely for sketching buildings apparently. However, he was not talented enough to make the grade for art school. Neither would I be. It wouldn't matter how much I practiced - I just don't have good manual dexterity with a pen (which makes learning to write kanji especially difficult). My writing is messy, and I'm not good at even simple line drawings. God took away my free will to become an artist. Maybe I should follow Mr Hitler's example....

c) Since when does anyone choose to have a heart attack? Since when is, for example, being born with a weak heart value a free will choice? If God makes us all individually, he's pretty incompetent!

Originally posted by scottishinnz
a) would not have affected Hitler's free will. The Hitler sperm never chose to be the fastest swimmer. A large part of which sperm makes it to the egg is chance. Since Hitler would not have existed, it could not affect his free will. Likewise, time paradoxes, we can only assume, are not a problem for an omnipotent being. Perhaps you think God is im ...[text shortened]... eart value a free will choice? If God makes us all individually, he's pretty incompetent!

Your arguments are almost bizarre. If God does not allow Hitler to exist then how is God to know what Hitler will do because Hitler will....erhem....never exist. For example , what does God know about Hitler's continued plans for world domination hatched in 1968 deep in the Brazillian jungle in Nazi hideaways? He knows nothing about this of course because it's not there. It's a future that doesn't exist and is beyond even God's omniscience. God can only know a future that actually exists in reality.


What does God know about Albert Krankl's torture of babies in 17th Century Austria? Should he prevent Krankl's egg from forming? Who knows , I just made him up. We know nothing about him because he never existed. If he had he might have been a great humanitarian or a torturer of babies. Should God kill the next foetus to be concieved on the basis that it might be the next Hitler? Should he kill you now in case you turn bad next year?

You see the problem is God cannot know what Hitler will do until he does it , and if he kills Hitler at conception he would have no reason to because he has no idea how Hitler will turn out unless he allows Hitler to live.

You are using omnipotence and omniscience as a blank cheque to say that God can and is able to know and do all sorts of paradoxical and illogical things. This is because you have a huge agenda to smash Christianity and have no sense of fair play or good faith in your arguments. You will say anything to support your position.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Your arguments are almost bizarre. If God does not allow Hitler to exist then how is God to know what Hitler will do because Hitler will....erhem....never exist. For example , what does God know about Hitler's continued plans for world domination hatched in 1968 deep in the Brazillian jungle in Nazi hideaways? He knows nothing about this of course beca ...[text shortened]... air play or good faith in your arguments. You will say anything to support your position.

Wow, you really hate logic and consistency.　　And, of course, standard definitions.

So, your small God isn't really omniscient, and does not have the ability to change the future?

Good work - you've done nearly all the destroying of Christianity that's required.

Originally posted by twhitehead
At last we are getting somewhere. All that murdering and stuff Hitler was up to was not really so bad in the big picture. It didn't stop you from bringing Hitler up as the ultimate 'bad guy' in your free will threads. It turns out the the truly ultimate bad guy is the one freely does not choose God. Sadly there is no such thing as 'choosing God' so the whole argument falls flat on its face.

No , you misunderstand. I'm not down playing the evil that was committed in the holocaust , I'm "up" playing the greater victory of the eternal soul over the death of the body and the final victory over suffering in redemption.

Originally posted by knightmeister
No , you misunderstand. I'm not down playing the evil that was committed in the holocaust , I'm "up" playing the greater victory of the eternal soul over the death of the body and the final victory over suffering in redemption.

Good luck explaining that to the relatives of those killed.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Good luck explaining that to the relatives of those killed.

No -one said it was an easy message and I do not state this position lightly or superficially. The pain and agony suffered in the holocaust is not to be underestimated but Christ's message is what it is. To change it would be to take away the redemption from suffering that those 6 million Jews deserve.

Originally posted by knightmeister
To change it would be to take away the redemption from suffering that those 6 million Jews deserve.

There was no redemption from suffering for those that died - only a death that they didn't deserve.