Hitler: Part of God's Plan?

Originally posted by knightmeister
You see the problem is God cannot know what Hitler will do until he does it , and if he kills Hitler at conception he would have no reason to because he has no idea how Hitler will turn out unless he allows Hitler to live.

Repeating this does not make it true. You are confusing "knowing that P" with "being certain that P". If libertarian freedom obtains, then we can not be certain about what people will do. This does not entail that we cannot have fallible knowledge concerning what people will do. Same goes for God. Please get this through your head.

Originally posted by knightmeister
No -one said it was an easy message and I do not state this position lightly or superficially. The pain and agony suffered in the holocaust is not to be underestimated but Christ's message is what it is. To change it would be to take away the redemption from suffering that those 6 million Jews deserve.

Of course, being Jews, they don't accept Jesus, and won't being going to heaven anyway, right?? So no redemption for them. So, now it starts to make sense - it doesn't matter about them, right? They were only Jews - they didn't accept Jesus.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Of course, being Jews, they don't accept Jesus, and won't being going to heaven anyway, right?? So no redemption for them. So, now it starts to make sense - it doesn't matter about them, right? They were only Jews - they didn't accept Jesus.

Not neccessarily true. Fundies will have you believe something like this. My belief is that everyone gets their chance of redemption. God understands when someone is brought up in a certain culture and is blocked from Christianity because of upbringing , he will not hold that against them. Anyway , I await your next post. No doubt you will scour your brain for any fly in the ointment you can find.

Originally posted by bbarr
Repeating this does not make it true. You are confusing "knowing that P" with "being certain that P". If libertarian freedom obtains, then we can not be certain about what people will do. This does not entail that we cannot have fallible knowledge concerning what people will do. Same goes for God. Please get this through your head.

I'm simply asking people to explain how God is supposed to prevent and know about a future that can never exist if Hitler is killed at conception. In order for God to know the future that said future has to exist otherwise it cannot be known. Killing Hitler would stop the holocaust (maybe) but if the holocaust never happens then God would have no reason to kill Hitler because there's no future holocaust to prevent or know anything about.

Your point is that he might be able to guess that Hitler would do what he did , but then you could be on the road to asking God to make a whole load of decisions like this. Where should he stop? Who does he decide to kill at birth and who lives? What if he gets it wrong and kills a Mother Theresa? (assuming that free will means that even God cannot predict 100% mens actions).

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm simply asking people to explain how God is supposed to prevent and know about a future that can never exist if Hitler is killed at conception. In order for God to know the future that said future has to exist otherwise it cannot be known. Killing Hitler would stop the holocaust (maybe) but if the holocaust never happens then God would have no reas other Theresa? (assuming that free will means that even God cannot predict 100% mens actions).

It would not be necessary to kill Hitler in order to prevent the Holocaust. It would merely require,
say, giving him a speech impediment as not to be as charismatic in his orations, or giving him
profound hearing loss, or maybe making him a better painter so he would have ended up
pursuing his first career in the arts.

Hell, God could make a different sperm fertilize Hitler's mother's egg, making a different
person with different interests and dispositions (inasmuch as genetics influences that stuff).

Smiting a person isn't the only solution to altering a known future.

Nemesio

Originally posted by knightmeister
Your point is that he might be able to guess that Hitler would do what he did , but then you could be on the road to asking God to make a whole load of decisions like this. Where should he stop? Who does he decide to kill at birth and who lives? What if he gets it wrong and kills a Mother Theresa? (assuming that free will means that even God cannot predict 100% mens actions).

God guesses? God gets it wrong? Then He's not omniscient.

If you take a literal view of Scripture, God clearly used to make decisions like this (smiting
people down left and right). Even after Jesus finished His ministry, God was still smiting.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/acts/the_fate_of_herod/ac12_21.html

If God is interested in optimizing the happiness and pleasure of people, surely smiting the deeply
and irretrievably evil serves that end (but, as I said above, smiting isn't even necessary anyway).

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
God guesses? God gets it wrong? Then He's not omniscient.

If you take a literal view of Scripture, God clearly used to make decisions like this (smiting
people down left and right). Even after Jesus finished His ministry, God was still smiting.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/acts/the_fate_of_herod/ac12_21.html

If God is interested in optimiz ...[text shortened]... y evil serves that end (but, as I said above, smiting isn't even necessary anyway).

Nemesio

"God guesses? God gets it wrong? Then He's not omniscient." ---nemesio

Yes , when he introduced free will into the universe then he created a situation where it's possible he would be surprised by his creations. However , the difficulty here is understanding the duality of God's omniscience. He a) knows what you will do tomorrow because tomorrow is already the past for him and b) at the point where you make tomorrow's choices he is still "blind" because he has given you free will and has to "wait" to see what you will do with your freedom. I

It's not a) or b) it's both . This may sound wierd but did you expect it to be straightforward?

Originally posted by Nemesio
It would not be necessary to kill Hitler in order to prevent the Holocaust. It would merely require,
say, giving him a speech impediment as not to be as charismatic in his orations, or giving him
profound hearing loss, or maybe making him a better painter so he would have ended up
pursuing his first career in the arts.

Hell, God could make a differe ...[text shortened]... at stuff).

Smiting a person isn't the only solution to altering a known future.

Nemesio

How exactly does one alter a "known" future? Once it is altered it doesn't exist and therefore cannot be known. A holocaust that doesn't happen can be prevented but it can't be known as a future event. A future event can be known by an eternal being but cannot be altered because it's already happened. God can alter a potential future but not a known one because a known future is set in time.

Originally posted by twhitehead
In other words God is illogical. Yes we know that, and we know that you accept that. So why the complicated explanation to try and make it more logical?
Your whole argument of course falls over when you admit the existence of prophesy.
And even worse, you appear to be saying that God does not infact know the future and is not omniscient.

prophecy is foresite, which is differenrt than forknowledge. Going back to my astronomer illustration, the ability to predict a celestial event is forsite, not forknowledge. There variables that occur, which make the exactness unknowable,

Originally posted by knightmeister
However , the difficulty here is understanding the duality of God's omniscience. He a) knows what you will do tomorrow because tomorrow is already the past for him and b) at the point where you make tomorrow's choices he is still "blind" because he has given you free will and has to "wait" to see what you will do with your freedom.

Of the incoherent ramblings you've ever posted, this takes the cake. He is both omniscient
and not omniscient? He's blind to the future, but knows what it is?!?

Your 'god' is a contradiction by your own definition. You just proved 'it' doesn't exist.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Of the incoherent ramblings you've ever posted, this takes the cake. He is both omniscient
and not omniscient? He's blind to the future, but knows what it is?!?

Your 'god' is a contradiction by your own definition. You just proved 'it' doesn't exist.

Nemesio

Why do baulk at this? You presumably would not baulk at the idea that light is both a particle and a wave?

The fact that God is eternal means that he can be present to 1945 and 1234 and 2090 equally with no problems. This is hard for us to understand because we are trapped in time , but in one sense it's actually logical that a being not trapped by time could do this.

Technically God is omniscient of all events in the universe , but the point being made here is that his omniscience still depends on those events happening. If you choose to kill someone tomorrow God knows you will do this , but only because you actually choose to do it. If you don't make that choice God doesn't know about it. Therefore , he cannot predict what you will choose to do until that moment when you choose it , but because he is eternal that moment is just as present to him as any moment. But he still has to wait for you to choose your choice and is still entirely dependent on you for his knowledge of your choice because in that present moment you may choose to buy some flowers instead.

This is why I say that in one sense God knows what you will choose but in other sense he doesn't know until you choose it. It's a different kind of omniscience from that that God would have if he had created an enbirely mechnistic universe that was 100% deterministic. In such a universe God would be completely omniscient because not only would he have the benefit of being not trapped in time he would also be able to make perfect predictions about events that would be 100% certain to occur.

Now all you have to do is think about the difference between that universe and a universe in which free will exists , because with free will in theory one would expect us to be able to surprise God here and there with a few of our choices , but also that God would know about our tomorrow.

The ultimate illustration of all this is in the Gospel where we see glimpses of how this might work in the trinity. God in Jesus is almost taken aback by the faith of the centurion and this comes across in the account. However, God the Father presumably knew that the centurion was about to do this , Jesus didn't. Here we see God as both knowing and not knowing what the centurion will do. The trinity is a complex concept in which God can be both vulnerable and powerful at the same time , human and omnipotent and also knowing and unknowing.

If I were a muslim I would have to make my mind up and say God is either omniscient or he isn't . Christianity is a bit more complex.It requires the maturity to be able to hold two or more difficult and seemingly opposing concepts together in mind and wrestle with them , just like quantum physicists do. Now I know you are easily able to do this , why do you choose not to try?

Originally posted by knightmeister
"God guesses? God gets it wrong? Then He's not omniscient." ---nemesio

Yes , when he introduced free will into the universe then he created a situation where it's possible he would be surprised by his creations. However , the difficulty here is understanding the duality of God's omniscience. He a) knows what you will do tomorrow because tomorrow is ...[text shortened]... or b) it's both . This may sound wierd but did you expect it to be straightforward?

It's amazing how so many Christians have mastered doublethink. First the Trinity, and now this.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why do baulk at this? You presumably would not baulk at the idea that light is both a particle and a wave?

The fact that God is eternal means that he can be present to 1945 and 1234 and 2090 equally with no problems. This is hard for us to understand because we are trapped in time , but in one sense it's actually logical that a being not trapped by ...[text shortened]... physicists do. Now I know you are easily able to do this , why do you choose not to try?

Everything is both a particle and a wave. There's nothing special about light that makes it different.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If I were a muslim I would have to make my mind up and say God is either omniscient or he isn't . Christianity is a bit more complex.

No. It just apparently has more contradictions.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Not neccessarily true. Fundies will have you believe something like this. My belief is that everyone gets their chance of redemption. God understands when someone is brought up in a certain culture and is blocked from Christianity because of upbringing , he will not hold that against them. Anyway , I await your next post. No doubt you will scour your brain for any fly in the ointment you can find.

All the flies in my ointment are standard Christian doctorine, don't blame me.

Why do you seem to have to re-write much of Christian doctorine, as well as bludgeoning logic to death, in defense of your contradictory faith?