Hitler: Part of God's Plan?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Maybe you think God should have tweaked events in Germany to avoid that future but that only works if you believe in multiple time lines , which I do not.

Um. You do. You just don't seem to know it.

What exactly were these "methods" anyway?
Why couldn't God simply kill Hitler when he saw it getting out of hand. Its almost like you are claiming that God is totally blind and cant do anything about events in the universe but simultaneously is forced to live with the results. It must be torture for him.
It also makes me wonder how you manage to deal with all the cases of God interfering in History. When he was playing games with the Pharaoh for instance he clearly saw that the Jews were having a hard time and did something about it. But when Hitler came along he left the Jews to their own devices (and in most cases death).

Originally posted by Conrau K
Surely law enforcement is an act of free will performed and regulated by society?

Stop being disingenuous. You know perfectly well that the actions of the law enforcement personnel is not the issue. It is the effect on those who are forced to obey the law that is at stake. Their free will is tampered with.

It matters not who is doing the tampering. If a police man stops you from committing murder the effect on your free will is no different from if God stopped you. If it is bad, then it is bad, if it is OK then when no police man is available and God does not step up to the plate then he is being negligent.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Stop being disingenuous. You know perfectly well that the actions of the law enforcement personnel is not the issue. It is the effect on those who are forced to obey the law that is at stake. Their free will is tampered with.

It matters not who is doing the tampering. If a police man stops you from committing murder the effect on your free will is no d ...[text shortened]... hen no police man is available and God does not step up to the plate then he is being negligent.

So the policeman's free will is compromised?

Originally posted by Conrau K
So the policeman's free will is compromised?

I don't know what you are talking about. I suspect you get my point but like any good theist cant admit it or your world will come crashing down.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't know what you are talking about. I suspect you get my point but like any good theist cant admit it or your world will come crashing down.

Conrau K has stated many times that he's not a theist.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Conrau K has stated many times that he's not a theist.

My sincere apologies to Conrau K then. I don't know him that well and made a false assumption.
That leaves me wondering why he is so insistent on not seeing the obvious. Can you see my point or is it me that thinks it is obvious when it isn't?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Can you see my point or is it me that thinks it is obvious when it isn't?

I can see your point & his ... I'm not entirely sure that free will exists, strictly speaking, so I can't say for sure which horse I'm backing.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I can see your point & his ... I'm not entirely sure that free will exists, strictly speaking, so I can't say for sure which horse I'm backing.

If you can see my point then surely his is totally invalid? Whether you believe free will exists is not important as the whole scenario is hypothetical anyway. The issue is that if God refrains from preventing murder because he feels it would restrict someones free will then we too should refrain from preventing murder as that would have the exact same effect and God clearly does not desire it. Or the reverse, if it is OK for us to prevent murder then it would be OK for God to do so.

And thats without even going into the whole issue of why curing an infant of malaria is considered interfering with its free will.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The issue is that [b]if God refrains from preventing murder because he feels it would restrict someones free will then we too should refrain from preventing murder as that would have the exact same effect and God clearly does not desire it.[/b]

I don't see how that follows. I think you're assuming we're obliged to read God's mind and act accordingly. Presumably following God's laws would be sufficient. God's desires for God and God's desires for humanity may not overlap 100%; how would we know?

Originally posted by Conrau K
According to you, the mere existence of an omniscient God precludes free will.

No, that would be according to logic. Not me.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But don't you see the contradiction? In order to prevent a future event from occuring God would have to know that event as an actual event in time , but if it has actually occured it's too late then because it's already happened in time. An actual known future event in time is unpreventable because in relative terms it's already happened.

Maybe you ...[text shortened]... believe in multiple time lines , which I do not. What exactly were these "methods" anyway?

But you have often said that you believe God to exist outside time, in which before and after have no meaning, and that he knows all. In which case, he could easily deal with it.

The methods I suggested were a) preventing the Hitler Sperm from reaching the Hitler Egg, or preventing its entry, b) making Hitler better at art, thus allowing him to enter art school, c) coronary heart disease, killing Hitler in say, 1933. None of these would violate free will. I could probably think up another dozen pretty easily, if you like. I'm sure an omniscient God could think of many more.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Um. You do. You just don't seem to know it.

[b]What exactly were these "methods" anyway?
Why couldn't God simply kill Hitler when he saw it getting out of hand. Its almost like you are claiming that God is totally blind and cant do anything about events in the universe but simultaneously is forced to live with the results. It must be torture for h ...[text shortened]... But when Hitler came along he left the Jews to their own devices (and in most cases death).[/b]

It most definitely is torture for him to watch us kill each other and I'm sure there are many times when God is tempted to end the universe there and then and be done with it. However, he has committed himself to free will which logically neccesitates a certain amount of risk of humans doing things he doesn't like.

Once you have understood that a committment to freedom logically means a certain degree of suffering/sin cannot be ruled out then you will have made the first step. The second question after this is how much potential suffering /sin is an acceptable risk? Create only slightly free beings and controlling most of their actions would be a safer universe less likely to result in things like the holocaust but there would also be a cost to freedom of choice and giving man a sense of responsibility for the world in which he lives.

Sometimes even I feel that God has got this balance wrong and wish he would intervene more but at other times I can see the potential for the hidden costs.
What also needs considering is that God's priorities are not neccessarily preserving life or avoiding earthly suffering. He sees the greater picture of eternity and souls. Jesus himself said that there are fates worse than death and that death is not to be feared. This is not to downplay the suffering of the holocaust but it is to say that Christianity is not for the faint hearted. It has no nanny state solution to suffering apart from the final salvation and redemption of the universe. In some respects it is a very very tough message that many will baulk at.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
But you have often said that you believe God to exist outside time, in which before and after have no meaning, and that he knows all. In which case, he could easily deal with it.

The methods I suggested were a) preventing the Hitler Sperm from reaching the Hitler Egg, or preventing its entry, b) making Hitler better at art, thus allowing him to ente ...[text shortened]... another dozen pretty easily, if you like. I'm sure an omniscient God could think of many more.

a) would most certainly affect Hitler's free will and also begs the question "if Hitler never existed then how could God know about Hitler in 1939-45? " Killing Hitler in order to prevent a future which has already happened is illogical and a time paradox. Either 1939-45 happens or it doesn't.

b) not a bad idea but still has the same problems as a) and how would God "make" him better at Art without infringing his free will ? Would he force him to draw? Hitler obvious had some talent that he chose not to pursue himself , should God have taken away that choice?

c)killing Hitler would certainly violate his free will I think . I have absolutely no idea why you think it might not.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I don't see how that follows. I think you're assuming we're obliged to read God's mind and act accordingly. Presumably following God's laws would be sufficient. God's desires for God and God's desires for humanity may not overlap 100%; how would we know?

I wouldn't know, but you are ignoring the fact that we supposedly do know Gods mind in this case. The scenario specifically states that God does not want to interfere with free will because doing so is bad.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I wouldn't know, but you are ignoring the fact that we supposedly do know Gods mind in this case. The scenario specifically states that God does not want to interfere with free will because doing so is bad.

Oh, all right. Carry on!