16 Jan 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterHitler may of had the humility whilst in the trenches in WW1 but not when arrested and jailed in the 1920's,from there on in to his downfall i agree he did not.🙂
I don't understand , God forgives of course. The question is did hitler have the humility to receive it , it seems he may not have.
16 Jan 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterHow would you know whether he did or didn't? You have no indications whatsoever to believe either way, so why are you making a judgment on it?
I don't understand , God forgives of course. The question is did hitler have the humility to receive it , it seems he may not have.
Or is it a case of - once forgiveness is received behavior changes and thus since Hitler was not recorded to have changed his behavior he would have to have accepted the forgiveness very close to his death and you are making a judgment based on the probability of that happening?
Can you always 'tell' who has or has not received forgiveness?
Can forgiveness be received after death?
16 Jan 08
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Originally posted by twhiteheadInteresting........your question's are for me impossible to answer,perhaps we could ask Red Night for his opinion on Stalin?after all both dictator's were the same in some area's of divide and rule.
How would you know whether he did or didn't? You have no indications whatsoever to believe either way, so why are you making a judgment on it?
Or is it a case of - once forgiveness is received behavior changes and thus since Hitler was not recorded to have changed his behavior he would have to have accepted the forgiveness very close to his death and you ...[text shortened]... ys 'tell' who has or has not received forgiveness?
Can forgiveness be received after death?
16 Jan 08
Originally posted by Hells CaretakerWell, Stalin was responsible for more innocent deaths, but just for different reasons. I think the reason for an act is relevant, but not by that much when we are talking about the murder of innocent people.
Interesting........your question's are for me impossible to answer,perhaps we could ask Red Night for his opinion on Stalin?after all both dictator's were the same in some area's of divide and rule.
16 Jan 08
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadIi did not say that I knew , I waw careful to use the word may. You are putting words into my mouth (but hey ho , I'm used to it). From what I know of Hitler and his death it seems unlikely that he had a conversion although he may have had one just before he died but then why would he have killed himself?
How would you know whether he did or didn't? You have no indications whatsoever to believe either way, so why are you making a judgment on it?
Or is it a case of - once forgiveness is received behavior changes and thus since Hitler was not recorded to have changed his behavior he would have to have accepted the forgiveness very close to his death and you ...[text shortened]... ys 'tell' who has or has not received forgiveness?
Can forgiveness be received after death?
I have consistently said on this forum that it is not our place to judge , but making educated guesses is another thing. In any case I am not judgeing him and whether he is fit to be forgiven or not , I am just saying that it doesn't look as if God was able to reach him , if he had I would have expected some remorse or something.
17 Jan 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterSorry, I miss-read what you said.
You are putting words into my mouth (but hey ho , I'm used to it).
So, do you believe that one cannot ask for forgiveness after death?
What is your stance on the insane? They are unable to ask for forgiveness due to their faulty brains which God presumably had a hand in giving them. Surely anyone can see that Hitler was insane?
17 Jan 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadSome become mentally ill through conscious choices to descend into chaos through drug use , violence and negative thinking. Anyone who is severely depressed can move on to become psychotic.
Sorry, I miss-read what you said.
So, do you believe that one cannot ask for forgiveness after death?
What is your stance on the insane? They are unable to ask for forgiveness due to their faulty brains which God presumably had a hand in giving them. Surely anyone can see that Hitler was insane?
We are all to a certain extent responsible for our own mental health , Hitler is no different. We don't know what choices he made along the way ,personally I think he is part product of an abusive childhood.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here other than just being a fly in the ointment. I have little idea how forgiveness works after death. I don't think that a mentally ill person cannot ask for forgiveness.
18 Jan 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterDepression especially when severe is a clinical condition usually not chosen by the sufferer (though drug use may be one possible cause).
Some become mentally ill through conscious choices to descend into chaos through drug use , violence and negative thinking. Anyone who is severely depressed can move on to become psychotic.
We are all to a certain extent responsible for our own mental health , Hitler is no different. We don't know what choices he made along the way ,personally I think he is part product of an abusive childhood.
But the key factor is that we (and possibly Hitler) are not well informed about the choices we are making and thus may inadvertently (not knowingly) make the 'wrong' choice. In another thread you were quite ready to absolve anyone who does not make a choice consciously, surely lack of information also translates to an unconscious choice?
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here other than just being a fly in the ointment. I have little idea how forgiveness works after death. I don't think that a mentally ill person cannot ask for forgiveness.
I simply take issue with your concept of forgiveness being something we are required to accept. It is not a fair nor reasonable system, and it doesn't make sense to me. It conflicts directly with popular Christian claims that God is 'fair' or 'just' or 'loving'.
I also take exception to anyone highlighting Hitler as the worst Human being ever. To my knowledge he was little different from a very significant proportion of the worlds population, the only reason for highlighting him is that the circumstances he found himself in resulted in the deaths of a vast number of people being blamed on him. The truth is that he was not solely responsible for the deaths and a lot of other people would have acted similarly or even worse if placed in the same situation.
18 Jan 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadBut the key factor is that we (and possibly Hitler) are not well informed about the choices we are making and thus may inadvertently (not knowingly) make the 'wrong' choice. In another thread you were quite ready to absolve anyone who does not make a choice consciously, surely lack of information also translates to an unconscious choice? - Whitey--
Depression especially when severe is a clinical condition usually not chosen by the sufferer (though drug use may be one possible cause).
[b]We are all to a certain extent responsible for our own mental health , Hitler is no different. We don't know what choices he made along the way ,personally I think he is part product of an abusive childhood. ...[text shortened]... her people would have acted similarly or even worse if placed in the same situation.[/b]
In a sense it is impossible for us to judge because we only know the information we have. My experience is that I may not have all the information but I do have a conscience that helps me sense what is wrong and right. My guess is (and it's only a guess) is that Hitler founds ways of silencing his conscience and rationalising violence and murder under the pretext of an ideology. However , silencing one's conscience is a choice , but I do not know what Hitler felt inside or at what level his conscience was available to him. My guess is he repressed his hate for his father and let it loose on Europe.
Despite this I think we are capable of making moral choices without the full information. I would agree that Hitler is sometimes demonised when really he is largely a product of ideology and his own brutal childhood. I cannot know how God will judge him because I cannot live Hitler's life and know what was conscious choice and what wasn't. I only know my own life experience which tells me that despite my life circumstances that I am born into I always have some choices available to me that will in turn lead to other possible choices and that these choices can lead me either away from integrity , love and compassion or towards it. Even in extreme situations human beings seem able to make some conscious choices (however small)
Maybe Hitler was doing everything he could to fight his very nature and become a being of compassion and wholeness , it just doesn't look like he was.