Spirituality
14 Feb 09
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27 Feb 09
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Originally posted by AgergWell, I think you are naive about the formulation of a contradiction. You posit that I make a choice at age 40 then deny that I can freely make that choice simply because God knows that I will make that choice. Not once have you actually answered my objections. You have simply reiterated your argument and argued that infallible knowledge mysteriously controls our actions.
But it isn't compatible...you have a very naive formulation of your God and the implications of foreknowledge
27 Feb 09
3 edits
Originally posted by Conrau KYou did not follow the argument...You saw what you wanted to see and stopped without reading further to see how that assumption of yours leads to nonsense.
Well, I think you are naive about the formulation of a contradiction. You posit that I make a choice at age 40 then deny that I can freely make that choice simply because God knows that I will make that choice. Not once have you actually answered my objections. You have simply reiterated your argument and argued that infallible knowledge mysteriously controls our actions.
Again, what did you choose when you were a sperm+egg in your mothers womb?
Absurd? yes! consequence of your model? yes!
You are sillier than KM 😀
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27 Feb 09
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Originally posted by AgergAnd you have the argumentative skills of KM. Look, if I did misrepresent your view, then pinpoint exactly where I did so (as I did before, when you thrice misrepresented me.) Otherwise it looks like you are making groundless assertions.
You did not follow the argument...You saw what you wanted to see and stopped without reading further to see how that assumption of yours leads to nonsense.
[b]Again, what did you choose when you were a sperm+egg in your mothers womb?
Absurd? yes! consequence of your model? yes!
You are sillier than KM 😀[/b]
I think it rather pointless for you to continue in this way. You have not responded to any of my objection but simply regurgitated the same argument, despite its contradictions. I have given four reasons why I think free will is compatible with foreknowledge. That you have not replied to one says more about your intelligence than mine.
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27 Feb 09
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Originally posted by AgergI didn't choose anything. I do not see how this is relevant. I think it is universally accepted that embryos do not have free will. I would however eventually become a rational being, and according to the libertarian have free will, I would make decisions and God would know these decisions because those are the decisions I would make as a result of being a free-willing agent. I don't see a problem. Again, whether God existed or not, whether God had infallible knowledge or not, I would make those same decisions according to my character. I do not see how God's foreknowledge changes anything. It is not forcing me to act that way, as you seem to think.
And what did you choose at the point you were a sperm+egg in your mothers womb?
27 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Conrau KI suspect your four reasons seem to be reconfigurations of the same assertion "conrau K no like skydaddy not giving me free-will, I choose then God know...yoo stoopid"
And you have the argumentative skills of KM. Look, if I did misrepresent your view, then pinpoint exactly where I did so (as I did before, when you thrice misrepresented me.) Otherwise it looks like you are making groundless assertions.
I think it rather pointless for you to continue in this way. You have not responded to any of my objection but simply ...[text shortened]... ith foreknowledge. That you have not replied to one says more about your intelligence than mine.
State your case here (all 4 of em) and I may respond (more importantly I'll be able to tell if there really was something I missed or whether you don't read properly)
27 Feb 09
Originally posted by Conrau KThe relevence is that under your model there exists at least one choice, known in advance by your God that was not caused by some free choice of yours. Furthermore all choices you make from this point based on that choice are known to your God before you make them.
I didn't choose anything. I do not see how this is relevant. I think it is universally accepted that embryos do not have free will. I would however eventually become a rational being, and according to the libertarian have free will, I would make decisions and God would know these decisions because those are the decisions I would make as a result of being a ...[text shortened]... s foreknowledge changes anything. It is not forcing me to act that way, as you seem to think.
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27 Feb 09
Originally posted by AgergYep. Again, I see no problem.
The relevence is that under your model there exists at least one choice, known in advance by your God that was not caused by some free choice of yours. Furthermore all choices you make from this point based on that choice are known to your God before you make them.
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27 Feb 09
Originally posted by Agerg1. We can foreknow how we will act, provided that no unforeseeable events happen. Such knowledge does not differ from God's knowledge except in degree of certainty. So how could God's foreknowledge impinge on free will and from our own foreknowledge? How could a higher degree of free will impact on free will?
I suspect your four reasons seem to be reconfigurations of the same assertion "conrau K no like skydaddy not giving me free-will, I choose then God know...yoo stoopid"
State your case here (all 4 of em) and I may respond (more importantly I'll be able to tell if there really was something I missed or whether you don't read properly)
2. God ought to know how we will act. Our actions are the result of our character and will. Since God must be omniscient, he should know our character infallibly and thus know how we will act. Free will thus requires God's foreknowledge.
3. Your reasoning is incoherent. You posit that I will choose X; that God knows I will choose. You then conclude that I am now forced to choose X. As I pointed out, knowledge does not force things to happen; it is always contingent. One cannot know something into existence -- such a statement does not make sense. One only knows something because it is the case. Thus God's knowledge of how I will act is contingent upon my choice. I realise the choice and then God knows I will make the choice. It does not happen the other way around.
4. Your premises are contradictory. You posit that I will choose X; then because God knows that I will choose, I can no longer choose X. This is contradictory. You cannot posit that I will choose X and then complain because I can no longer choose not-X. So don't blame God's omniscience, blame the first premise that I will choose X.
I suspect your four reasons seem to be reconfigurations of the same assertion "conrau K no like skydaddy not giving me free-will, I choose then God know...yoo stoopid"
Well, I have not actually discussed my religious beliefs. As I have said, just because I am defending a libertarian view of free will does not necessarily mean I believe it. I think libertarianism as untenable. I just think that you are wrong that God's omniscience harms a libertarian model of free will. So I am arguing on a theoretical point, not a personal religious conviction.
27 Feb 09
The biggest obstacle that most people are having with the subject is a misundertanding and/or ignorance regarding God's knowledge.
Unlike our knowledge, His knowledge is whole and complete--- a comprehensive package of total information and understanding. Whereas we see in part and sometimes even know/understand in part, God's view of time is the same as His view of all knowledge: exhaustive.
We see the past as set--- even though some things are still unclear to us--- simply because the actions have already occured. We see the future as uncertain for the opposite reason. God's knowledge has no such limitations.
Not only does He see the past perfectly, He sees the future perfectly. Why? Because He knows the end from before the beginning. In a phrase, perfect knowledge. The future has already occured in His mind, simply because in His mind exists all knowledge.
As far as free will goes, He has made us free will agents co-existing with His free will. He does not force any action upon us (in terms of personal decisions), nor does His knowledge leave us without choice in every matter before us in the future. Though the future is certain in His mind, it is only as a result of His comprehensive knowledge.
Imagining all knowledge as the whole group (with all of its many sub-groups of time frames, could-have-beens and etc.), the entire group rests in God's mind. Nothing is hidden from Him. The integrity of His thinking is just that: whole and complete. Such exhaustive knowledge does not remove the free will from any agent... except in the minds of those with limited vision.
27 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by FreakyKBH….The biggest obstacle that most people are having with the subject is a misunderstanding and/or ignorance regarding God's knowledge. ..…
The biggest obstacle that most people are having with the subject is a misundertanding and/or ignorance regarding God's knowledge.
Unlike our knowledge, His knowledge is whole and complete--- a comprehensive package of total information and understanding. Whereas we see in part and sometimes even know/understand in part, God's view of time is the same not remove the free will from any agent... except in the minds of those with limited vision.
How would you know anything about “God’s” knowledge?
….UNLIKE OUR knowledge, His knowledge is whole and complete--- a comprehensive package of total information and understanding. Whereas we see in part and sometimes even know/understand in part, God's view of time is the same as His view of all knowledge: exhaustive.
We see the past as set--- even though some things are still unclear to us--- simply because the actions have already occurred. We see the future as uncertain for the opposite reason. God's knowledge has no such limitations.
Not only does He see the past perfectly, He sees the future perfectly. Why? Because He knows the end from before the beginning. In a phrase, perfect knowledge. The future has already occurred in His mind, simply because in His mind exists all knowledge...… (my emphasis)
How would you know all this?
This would be especially odd when taking into account of the fact that the word “OUR” in your above statement must mean this includes you yourself thus you must also have incomplete knowledge of his knowledge ( assuming “he“ exists!) -right?
P.S. I would regard any quote from the Bible as a none-answer to these questions since we have no rational premise to think that everything the Bible says must be true.
27 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Conrau K1. We can foreknow how we will act, provided that no unforeseeable events happen. Such knowledge does not differ from God's knowledge except in degree of certainty. So how could God's foreknowledge impinge on free will and from our own foreknowledge? How could a higher degree of free will impact on free will?
1. We can foreknow how we will act, provided that no unforeseeable events happen. Such knowledge does not differ from God's knowledge except in degree of certainty. So how could God's foreknowledge impinge on free will and from our own foreknowledge? How could a higher degree of free will impact on free will?
2. God ought to know how we will act. Our act free will. So I am arguing on a theoretical point, not a personal religious conviction.
That degree of uncertainty is critical...You can be quite sure of how you are likely to act based on the variables you have to work with, and so long as nothing else knows precisely when and how you will act then whether you have free-will or pseudo free-will is a question that cannot be answered here.
God knowing you will do X in the future without margin for error implies that circumstances and the mechanics of your brain/soul (whatever that is) will lead you towards doing X without you having the opportunity to do otherwise (lest you prove God wrong). Your actions/choices may as well be scripted.
2. God ought to know how we will act. Our actions are the result of our character and will. Since God must be omniscient, he should know our character infallibly and thus know how we will act. Free will thus requires God's foreknowledge.
Wrong...I and others are trying to show you that accepting as true the premise God knows everthing and we also have free will leads to contradiction.
Also, here you are now making the claim that God knows how you will act based on its infallible knowledge of your character whilst elsewhere you claim God only knows how you act once you make a specific choice.
3. Your reasoning is incoherent. You posit that I will choose X; that God knows I will choose. You then conclude that I am now forced to choose X. As I pointed out, knowledge does not force things to happen; it is always contingent. One cannot know something into existence -- such a statement does not make sense. One only knows something because it is the case. Thus God's knowledge of how I will act is contingent upon my choice. I realise the choice and then God knows I will make the choice. It does not happen the other way around.
You claim your God always knows what you have done do you not? By recursion it can be demonstrated (I did so earlier and you ignored it) that there was a thing your God knew you would do that was not contingent upon any choice you made. This particular action can be considered that which 'seeds' all your other choices. Hence your actions are scripted.
Also as an aside (an important one)...exactly how do you define your God's temporal existence such that he can be omnscient?
4. Your premises are contradictory. You posit that I will choose X; then because God knows that I will choose, I can no longer choose X. This is contradictory. You cannot posit that I will choose X and then complain because I can no longer choose not-X. So don't blame God's omniscience, blame the first premise that I will choose X.
No I do not claim you will choose X then be forced to choose X because God knows you will choose X. This seems to be your conceptualisation of the problem.
I claim that your God knows you will choose X and from your perspective having not even considered the thought of what X even is yet, X is the choice you must make in the future (else you will prove God wrong).
27 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Conrau KThat choice X_0 which was not determined by any of your pervious choices leads to X_1 which then leads to X_2 and so on under your model. You don't actually make any 'free' choices.
Yep. Again, I see no problem.
In other worda...your future is set at some point independently of your actions.
27 Feb 09
Originally posted by AgergI see what Conrau is saying but I disagree with his model. I think there is one sense (eg God's presence with us in time via Jesus) where God really doesn't know what we will do at any point in time.
That choice X_0 which was not determined by any of your pervious choices leads to X_1 which then leads to X_2 and so on under your model. You don't actually make any 'free' choices.
In other worda...your future is set at some point independently of your actions.
I also believe that present moments in the now are unpredictable.
For example , if God is present with you now and watching you make a free choice in this present moment then in a real sense your choice is unpredictable right now. He really doesn't know what you are going to do . However, the second apsect of this is to ask "how long has God had to wait for me to reach this present moment?" The answer is he's always been here from eternity.
The issue is whether the nature of space /time correlates to our perception of it. We see time as fixed in the past and uncertain or fixed in the future , but alive and vibrant in the present. It's only this present moment that is alive as we pass through it.
But what if time is actually more like a whole series of now moments stretched out over eons? This would mean that napoleon is still alive back in his time reference still choosing and that you are alive in some future now making a choice.
This is roughly how I imagine God sees time. Your future free choice is no less real to him than the one you are now making , and the one you are now making he has been present to for all eternity.
One way of looking at heaven and eternal life is that once a person gets there all time will lose meaning and it will seem as if they had always been there . It won't feel as if it occurrs "after" their earthly life , it will be as if they were there from since the foundation of the universe and beyond.
27 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonHow would you know anything about “God’s” knowledge?
….The biggest obstacle that most people are having with the subject is a misunderstanding and/or ignorance regarding God's knowledge. ..…
How would you know anything about “God’s” knowledge?
….UNLIKE OUR knowledge, His knowledge is whole and complete--- a comprehensive package of total information and understanding. Whereas we see in tions since we have no rational premise to think that everything the Bible says must be true.
The Word of God provides us with everything we need to know about God’s knowledge (and everything related to the spiritual life, for that matter).
How would you know all this?
Please see above response.
This would be especially odd when taking into account of the fact that the word “OUR” in your above statement must mean this includes you yourself thus you must also have incomplete knowledge of his knowledge ( assuming “he“ exists!) -right?
Regardless of anyone’s exposure to truth, the corrupt nature of man guarantees that his vision will--- for the time being--- be restricted. As it says in Paul’s writing to the Corinthians:
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
P.S. I would regard any quote from the Bible as a none-answer to these questions since we have no rational premise to think that everything the Bible says must be true.
Or, in the obverse, a presumption that the Bible isn’t true… as you hold for no apparent reason.
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27 Feb 09
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Originally posted by knightmeisterThen you have no problem. You do not believe God fully omniscient. I would also challenge that your vision of free will is incoherent. A choice should be predictable from who you are. This is common sense. When someone is being trialled for a criminal charge, the defending lawyer may seek to prove that the person had acted out of character and was thus could not have been of sound mind. When a friend, whom you know very well, behaves oddly, you are inclined to believe that 'something has gotten into him', that something has interfered with his free will. Free will requires that human action be predictable.
I see what Conrau is saying but I disagree with his model. I think there is one sense (eg God's presence with us in time via Jesus) where God really doesn't know what we will do at any point in time.
I also believe that present moments in the now are unpredictable.
For example , if God is present with you now and watching you make a free choice it will be as if they were there from since the foundation of the universe and beyond.