Holy spirit

Originally posted by Conrau K
I see it; I just do not see it as a problem. Of course that means the future is fixed -- it is fixed by me. How is that not an affirmation of free will? If I am a free-willing agent I should know what I will do: I know myself very well and as a free-willing agent, it should be I who makes a free-willing decision. You add up the syllogism.

and how exactly is it fixed by you??? Please answer this because it is important.

Note that whatever choice you think you made at some point t_0 in order to set this future was also known by your God, and that this line of reasoning can be applied recursively back to the very day you were born and before.

Originally posted by Agerg
and how exactly is it fixed by you??? Please answer this because it is important.

Note that whatever choice you think you made at some point t_0 in order to set this future was also known by your God, and that this line of reasoning can be applied recursively back to the very day you were born and before.

But don't you see? Even you admit I make the choice. God's knowledge is contingent upon my choice. I am the one fixing the future.

Originally posted by Conrau K
But don't you see? Even you admit I make the choice. God's knowledge is contingent upon my choice. I am the one fixing the future.

nope...read again
There is no contingency implied because by recursion we can track back to your formation in your mothers womb (and before)

Originally posted by SwissGambit

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Libertarian-free-will

libertarianism is generally held to be the combination of the following beliefs:
1. that free will is incompatible with determinism
2. that determinism is false, and
3. that human beings do possess free will.

[b]Because as I see it, even libertarian free will ...[text shortened]... ounds very close to determinism. "Predictable" certainly seems like the wrong word to use.[/b]

No. Of course, libertarianism is incompatible with determinism. But determinism is not the same as predictability. A determinist holds that all human action is explicable by causal antecedents outside the person: their genes, social environment, parentage, etc. A libertarian rejects this and holds that while these factors may influence a decision, the person still has some limited scope independent from these causal antecedents. Actions are predictable but only in terms of the individual and not external factors.

But still, even the libertarian must accept that for a free-willing agent, it is the agent who chooses to act a certain way in accordance with his own character. How a person will act must be predictable from their character. If it were otherwise, then a free-willing agent would have to act without any influence of his own character. There is no will in that.

Originally posted by Agerg
nope...read again
There is no contingency implied at all.

How so? God only knows how I will act because that is the decision I will make. It does not make sense if the other way around. One does not know something into existence. His knowledge does not force me to act; I would act that way whether or not he even existed.

Originally posted by Conrau K
No. Of course, libertarianism is incompatible with determinism. But determinism is not the same as predictability. A determinist holds that all human action is explicable by causal antecedents outside the person: their genes, social environment, parentage, etc. A libertarian rejects this and holds that while these factors may influence a decision, th ...[text shortened]... ng agent would have to act without any influence of his own character. There is no will in that.

OK, so from a libertarian perspective, where do we get our character from?

Originally posted by Conrau K
How so? God only knows how I will act because that is the decision I will make. It does not make sense if the other way around. One does not know something into existence. His knowledge does not force me to act; I would act that way whether or not he even existed.

I don't know who is worse KM or you!
Let me try another way

Assume for example you're 40 now. Assume God knows you will do X_0 in a years time and it was your choice of X_1 now that determines this.

Now consider yourself when you were 39. God knows you will choose X_1 when you are 40 and this will bring about a choice X_0 you will make when you are 41. This choice X_1 was determined by a choice X_2 you made at the age of 39

Now consider yourself when you were 38. God knows you will choose X_2 when you are 39 to bring about a choice X_1 you will make when you are 40 that will bring about a choice of X_0 when you are 41, and that this choice X_1 was determined by a choice X_2 you made at the age of 39 which was determined by a choice X_3 you made at the age of 38

Now consider yourself when you were 37...and so on, all the way back to the day your parents decided they wanted a kid (that would later turn out to be you)!

God's knowledge with your model is not contingent on what you do...your choices are scripted.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
OK, so from a libertarian perspective, where do we get our character from?

Hey, not my concern. I am not the libertarian. As Twhiteheard said earlier, it is not clear what the source of the will could be in a libertarian framework. I imagine KM might say the soul or something.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Hey, not my concern. I am not the libertarian. As Twhiteheard said earlier, it is not clear what the source of the will could be in a libertarian framework. I imagine KM might say the soul or something.

mindless goddunnit magic freewill

Originally posted by Agerg
I don't know who is worse KM or you!
Let me try another way

Assume for example you're 40 now. Assume God knows you will do X_0 in a years time and it was your choice of X_1 [b]now that determines this.

Now consider yourself when you were 39. God knows you will choose X_1 when you are 40 and this will bring about a choice X_0 you will make when you a ...[text shortened]... God's knowledge with your model is not contingent on what you do...your choices are scripted.[/b]

Precisely my point. I will choose X at age 40. God knows that because that is the choice I will make; it is the choice I will want to make. His knowledge is not forcing me, though. God's knowledge does not make me want to do it. My choices are scripted by me, not God.

Saying that God's knowledge scripts my acts is just plain stupid. My knowledge that the object in front of me is a computer does not make it become a computer. Knowledge is contingent. Why should knowledge of human action be any different?

Originally posted by Agerg
mindless goddunnit magic freewill

As I have said, I am not the libertarian. I am just arguing that libertarianism is compatible, indeed necessitates, that God foreknows how I will act.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Precisely my point. I will choose X at age 40. God knows that because that is the choice I will make; it is the choice I will want to make. His knowledge is not forcing me, though. God's knowledge does not make me want to do it. My choices are scripted by me, not God.

Saying that God's knowledge scripts my acts is just plain stupid. My knowledge that th ...[text shortened]... mputer. Knowledge is contingent. Why should knowledge of human action be any different?

You didn't (couldn't?) follow the argument! Yes I know your point, and I know why it is wrong!!!

And what did you choose at the point you were a sperm+egg in your mothers womb?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Hey, not my concern. I am not the libertarian. As Twhiteheard said earlier, it is not clear what the source of the will could be in a libertarian framework. I imagine KM might say the soul or something.

On one hand, you say, "the source must be character"; on the other, you say, "it is not clear what the source is".

I see no reason why the libertarian must argue that choices come from character. As far as they know, their choices are random.

Originally posted by Conrau K
As I have said, I am not the libertarian. I am just arguing that libertarianism is compatible, indeed necessitates, that God foreknows how I will act.

But it isn't compatible...you have a very naive formulation of your God and the implications of foreknowledge

Originally posted by SwissGambit
On one hand, you say, "the source must be character"; on the other, you say, "it is not clear what the source is".

I see no reason why the libertarian must argue that choices come from character. As far as they know, their choices are random.

No contradiction. I was referring to the source of the will (i.e. the character and desires of the person), not free will. Libertarians argue that choice comes exclusively from the character of the individual, undetermined by external things like genes and environment. Where that character comes from is something that KM has never explained.