Originally posted by @divegeesterI have the patience akin to that of a special needs teacher. 😉
He only has one topic, this one, and he runs out of ideas very quickly. There is little substance to the reams of posts, it’s all arguing over largely irrelevant nuances. I think most people here are bored with him and it; in fact the only interesting aspect of these threads is that you are not.
Originally posted by @dj2beckerYou mean like the verses specifying how to treat your slaves or the conditions under which it is ok to whip your wife? stuff like that?
I disagree. The Bible has a lot to say about how we as humans aught to behave towards each other.
Originally posted by @dj2becker...no one has the right to judge anyone else for their view.
"If there is no universal standard of right and wrong everyone can decide for themselves what is right and wrong and no one has the right to judge anyone else for their view."
"The right"?
Do you feel you have "the right" to judge people... people like me, for instance? It seems you do; indeed, you seem preoccupied with whether people have "the right" to judge each other. Do you not think I have "the right" to judge you too?
Originally posted by @dj2beckerThe author clearly hasn't thought this through.
Morality is defined by Webster’s Dictionary as “conformity to ideals of right human conduct”. It is behavior that is regarded as correct and subjected to a series of codes of conduct by a human being. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy established that the term “morality” can be used either (1) descriptively to refer to some codes of conducts put for ...[text shortened]... he Christian church today?
https://theologyexchange.com/2013/01/27/morality-and-christianity/
The fact is that the Bible is widely open to interpretation. Therefore Christians are greatly divided on many issues of morality. As such, the Bible is not a reliable source for humans in determining what is or is not "true morality".
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Originally posted by @thinkofoneIs there another source of moral instruction which you feel is more universally agreed upon than the Bible?
The author clearly hasn't thought this through.
The fact is that the Bible is widely open to interpretation. Therefore Christians are greatly divided on many issues of morality. As such, the Bible is not a reliable source for humans in determining what is or is not "true morality".
What would that source be?
The teachings of Confucius perhaps?
The Humanist Manifesto maybe?
More universally heeded and less interpretive disputes.
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Originally posted by @sonshipYou forgot to add FMFs moral sensibilities to the list.
Is there another source of moral instruction which you feel is more universally agreed upon than the Bible?
What would that source be?
The teachings of Confucius perhaps?
The Humanist Manifesto maybe?
More universally heeded and less interpretive disputes.
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Originally posted by @sonshipMorality obviously existed before the bible. Indeed the bible 'borrowed' the morality already in the conscience of man. The same goes for Confucius or any of the Humanist philosophers.
Is there another source of moral instruction which you feel is more universally agreed upon than the Bible?
What would that source be?
The teachings of Confucius perhaps?
The Humanist Manifesto maybe?
More universally heeded and less interpretive disputes.
The source you seek therefore is not to be found in any book but in the very genetic makeup of the evolving human being. Morality has developed hand in hand with advancements in intelligence. This is the danger in taking your moral instruction from an ancient book. It's way out of date my friend.
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19 Nov 17
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeIndeed the bible 'borrowed' the morality already in the conscience of man.
Morality obviously existed before the bible. Indeed the bible 'borrowed' the morality already in the conscience of man. The same goes for Confucius or any of the Humanist philosophers.
The source you seek therefore is not to be found in any book but in the very genetic makeup of the evolving human being. Morality has developed hand in hand with ...[text shortened]... he danger in taking your moral instruction from an ancient book. It's way out of date my friend.
This is not a fact, it is you speculating.
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I have asked the above poster not to respond to my posts.
I have no interest in communicating with someone who seriously thinks morality only came in to existence with the writing of the bible, or that ancient myths are not ancient at all if they contradict the bible. I'm only interested in genuine and grown up dialogue of which the above poster has demonstrated repeatedly he is not capable of.
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeI did not say that morality came into existence with the writing of the Bible or that myths are not ancient if they contradict they Bible. That is you putting words in my mouth. I was simply pointing out that that your claims of 'borrowing' that supposedly happens in the Bible is merely speculation on your part.
I have asked the above poster not to respond to my posts.
I have no interest in communicating with someone who seriously thinks morality only came in to existence with the writing of the bible, or that ancient myths are not ancient at all if they contradict the bible. I'm only interested in genuine and grown up dialogue of which the above poster has demonstrated repeatedly he is not capable of.
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Morality obviously existed before the bible. Indeed the bible 'borrowed' the morality already in the conscience of man. The same goes for Confucius or any of the Humanist philosophers.
The source you seek therefore is not to be found in any book but in the very genetic makeup of the evolving human being. Morality has developed hand in hand with ...[text shortened]... he danger in taking your moral instruction from an ancient book. It's way out of date my friend.
Morality obviously existed before the bible.
That is true.
Does this mean, though, that morality existed before an eternal God?
Yes, before Job - the oldest book in the Bible, was written, a sense morality existed in people. But does that argue that this sense existed without an eternally living Creator who places into His creation such a sense?
Indeed the bible 'borrowed' the morality already in the conscience of man. The same goes for Confucius or any of the Humanist philosophers.
But if God is the Creator wouldn't God also be the Creator of Mr. Confucius also?
You see the date of a written document doesn't prove that God is an afterthought.
I don't see how Moses writing "So God created man in His own image" at some point in time makes God only existent from THAT point of the writing.
Confucius talked about what anyone would call the human conscience.
I think he referred to it as "the bright virtue".
We intuitively know what is good and right in our deeper heart, for example.
If that is true then it is not starting to be true when Confucius wrote about it.
And if God created man in His own image and according to His own likeness, IF that is true, it didn't start to be true ONLY when Moses took the oral tradition and wrote it down.
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Morality obviously existed before the bible. Indeed the bible 'borrowed' the morality already in the conscience of man. The same goes for Confucius or any of the Humanist philosophers.
The source you seek therefore is not to be found in any book but in the very genetic makeup of the evolving human being. Morality has developed hand in hand with ...[text shortened]... he danger in taking your moral instruction from an ancient book. It's way out of date my friend.
The source you seek therefore is not to be found in any book but in the very genetic makeup of the evolving human being. Morality has developed hand in hand with advancements in intelligence. This is the danger in taking your moral instruction from an ancient book. It's way out of date my friend.
Do you at all understand what Paul meant when he wrote that the law was a child-conductor leading us to grace?
Do you have any desire to know what on earth Paul meant by writing that, the law of Moses was guardian or servant leading man to faith in Christ and grace ?
"So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith.
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor." (Galatians 3:24,25)
Now you can shrug in apathy and say you don't care.
But if you do you can't really come off as someone who understands the Christian perspective.
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Originally posted by @sonship"Do you at all understand what Paul meant when he wrote that the law was a child-conductor leading us to grace?"The source you seek therefore is not to be found in any book but in the very genetic makeup of the evolving human being. Morality has developed hand in hand with advancements in intelligence. This is the danger in taking your moral instruction from an ancient book. It's way out of date my friend.
Do you at all understand what Paul meant ...[text shortened]... .
But if you do you can't really come off as someone who understands the Christian perspective.
Do you understand that there are whole sections of the bible that are simply abhorrent when it comes to moral instruction?
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
"Do you at all understand what Paul meant when he wrote that the law was a child-conductor leading us to grace?"
Do you understand that there are whole sections of the bible that are simply abhorrent when it comes to moral instruction?
Do you understand that there are whole sections of the bible that are simply abhorrent when it comes to moral instruction?
This doesn't address my matter of the law of Moses being called a child-conductor leading us to Christ. But let's consider your remark anyway.
This will be a short comment. When I read through the Old Testament books like Leviticus I keep in mind something important. The audience to whom the speaking is addressed have just unmistakenly witnessed the power and reality of the God in the deliverance from Egypt. They saw His miracles. They had little to no excuse in not knowing that God was real.
To this backround, to these witnesses and their offspring were written some laws on the holiness of God which are very strong. I take in consideration that THESE people KNEW God was absolutely holy, majestic, righteous, and glorious.
With this backround I can understand the strictness of some of the laws Moses delivered to them from Mt. Sinai. This does not completely address your comment. Its good enough for this post as a start.
Take the strictness of some of the laws as indication that recipients had no excuse about NOT knowing Yahweh was supreme and real and terrible in holiness.
Try to see it that way and don't close the book with the last chapter of Joshua. Its not over yet.
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
"Do you at all understand what Paul meant when he wrote that the law was a child-conductor leading us to grace?"
Do you understand that there are whole sections of the bible that are simply abhorrent when it comes to moral instruction?
Do you understand that there are whole sections of the bible that are simply abhorrent when it comes to moral instruction?
No I don't agree with this "whole sections abhorrent" analysis.
Here and there there are particular penalties that seem harsh to me.
I keep in mind that the offerings - "sin offering, peace offering, consecration offering, meal offering, trespass offering" were ways for offenders to be reconciled to the theocratic community and justified by God.
If you read Leviticus and have the feeling that you may get in serious trouble, I think you have gotten the right reaction. We are in fact in trouble. And then we have the Savior and the Gospel and the Justification of faith in a Savior to save us from ourselves.
The feeling of being "cut no slack" that the Old Testament sometimes appears to have is understood against the backround that this miraculous Exodus from Egypt by God in history DID take place.