01 Apr 14
Justice. Death. Fair. Cowardly. Love.
What is being done to these words ~ and their conventional meanings ~ by Christians when they are talking about their dreams about their own immortality and the great violence they envisage being heaped upon those who do not share their beliefs?
01 Apr 14
Originally posted by FMFWhat is being done to the words? They are being taken to a little place I like to call Bizarro world.
Justice. Death. Fair. Cowardly. Love.
What is being done to these words ~ and their conventional meanings ~ by Christians when they are talking about their dreams about their own immortality and the great violence they envisage being heaped upon those who do not share their beliefs?
Bizarro-love: the act of caring for someone so much that you will ensure they are tormented without end if they fail to love you back.
Bizarro-death: you do not actually die; your soul simply leaves the body.
Bizarro-fairness (also -justice): everyone who is saved by Jesus' blood gets eternal happiness, no matter how many wicked things they did. Conversely, everyone who fails to pray for salvation gets the same punishment as the very most wicked and cruel people on earth.
etc.
01 Apr 14
Originally posted by SwissGambitBizarro-love: the act of caring for someone so much that you will ensure they are tormented without end if they fail to love you back.
What is being done to the words? They are being taken to a little place I like to call Bizarro world.
Bizarro-death: you do not actually die; your soul simply leaves the body.
Bizarro-fairness (also -justice): everyone who is saved by Jesus' blood gets eternal happiness, no matter how many wicked things they did. Conversely, everyone who fails to pray for salvation gets the same punishment as the very most wicked and cruel people on earth. etc.
There are words already available for discussing these imagined interactions.
Sadism. Extortion. Self-loathing. Groupism/Exceptionalism.
01 Apr 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI notice that you continued posting for several hours in different forums after telling us you could not respond due to to "medical reasons". Are you testing "Galveston's Law" (that says any excuse not to post is not usually acceptable) or are you being an April fool?
Goodnight, divegeester. Count your blessings instead of sheep.... you'll sleep soundly until the new day dawns.
01 Apr 14
2 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterdive, the residual lower leg neuropathy from the sixteen month paralysis often prevents supine position sleep; then 2-3 hour sleep intervals at best when the discomfort is minimal... I'll deliver as promised later today. 2.5 Hours Sleep so far @ GMT-5
I notice that you continued posting for several hours in different forums after telling us you could not respond due to to "medical reasons". Are you testing "Galveston's Law" (that says any excuse not to post is not usually acceptable) or are you being an April fool?
Originally posted by Grampy Bobbycareful GB such information could be used to call you to account for failing to post at divegeesters behest. Oh wait, I see it already is, what next for him, robbing old ladies and beating up homeless people.
dive, the residual lower leg neuropathy from the sixteen month paralysis often prevents supine position sleep; then 2-3 hour sleep intervals at best when the discomfort is minimal... I'll deliver as promised later today. 2.5 Hours Sleep so far @ GMT-5
01 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyOnly got 3.5 myself 🙁
dive, the residual lower leg neuropathy from the sixteen month paralysis often prevents supine position sleep; then 2-3 hour sleep intervals at best when the discomfort is minimal... I'll deliver as promised later today. 2.5 Hours Sleep so far @ GMT-5
01 Apr 14
Originally posted by divegeesterdivegeester, here's a brief explanation of the confusing words in context from Scofield's Reference. Thanks for your patience.
Sorry GB but you are not making a cohesive point.
My point is that "death" is not conducive to "eternal suffering". Whereby death is in fact the end and not eternity.
"Notes Second death, Summary: "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms Rev 20:14 and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is "second" relative to the preceding physical death of the wicked in unbelief and rejection of God; their eternal state is one of eternal "death" (i.e. separation from God) in sins Jn 8:21,24. That the second death is not annihilation is shown by a comparison of Rev 19:20 20:10. After one thousand years in the lake of fire the Beast and False Prophet are still there, undestroyed. The words "forever and forever" "to the ages of the ages" are used in Heb 1:8 for the duration of the throne of God, eternal in the sense of unending." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/20-14.htm
(Appointment today; be back this evening with several passages of scripture and comments.)
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01 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Thanks for your "few scattered comments" which touch on the intimacy and fulfillment of the Royal Family, Body of Christ, in this dispensation becoming the Bride of Christ at the Marriage Supper of The Lamb in Heaven for eternity. I also appreciate your focus on God's Absolute Justice and Righteousness (Divine Integrity) in the face of which one day every knee will bow in reverential awe. In the vernacular, God Almighty is nobody to screw around with by testing His Patience and Mercy on March 31, 2014, or ever! One final thought for my friends and almost friends: eternity is one helluva long, long while....
Heaven is not the destination for the saved to be living in eternity.
The final destination is spoken of as New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven from God. So if the saved are housed in heaven and the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven they will be left in heaven looking down at where they are suppose to be.
"I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which DESCENDS out of heaven from My God." (Rev. 3:12b)
The eternal city DESCENDS out of heaven from God.
"And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev. 21:2)
Again, the eternal destination of the saved is coming down.
Now, I believe that this "coming down" and this "descending" should be thought of in the same sense as Jesus being the bread which came down from heaven" (John 6:51,58)
"I am the living bread which CAME DOWN out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever." (v.51)
" This is the bread which CAME DOWN out of heaven, not as the fathers ate ..." (v.58)
Jesus "came down" out of heaven by being God mingled with man. Jesus "came down" by God uniting Himself with humanity in incarnation.
The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God in this sense in eternity. God is united with man. God is dispensed into man. God is imparted into man and God is mingled with man to become a corporate "holy city, New Jerusalem" .
Of course there is a rapture to heaven and a return of both Christ and His overcoming ones from heaven. The majority of the believers are raptured not to heaven but to the clouds. This requires more elaboration.
But my main point is that the final eternal destination of the saved is not spoken of as being in Heaven but being "New Jerusalem" . And if Christians insist that they want to go to Heaven forever, then they are requesting to be left up there while the place God has prepared for all His redeemed is in the city descending down from them there in heaven on its way to the planet.
Now some readers see heaven and earth as joining together. This is better at least. But I think what they are really seeing in Revelation 21 and 22 is God and man joining. Yes it looks like Heaven coming down perhaps. What is really be seen as a sign is the Triune God and and the tripartite man uniting in a mingled incorporation as a collective, a "holy city".
New Jerusalem is something we are BECOMMING more than a place we are going.
Again I say, the holy city New Jerusalem is something the Christians and all the saved of Old and New covenant are becoming. We are becoming the New Jerusalem. And this equates to the eternal city coming down out of heaven from God to the earth.
Think about it everybody. I do not insist on agreement. I request that it be contemplated.
Look, this must be the case for this reason also. Jesus says that He will make the overcoming believer a PILLAR in the temple of His God. And that temple of His God is the New Jerusalem.
"He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends .... etc." (Rev. 3:12)
The city of God is also the temple of God:
"And I heard a loud voice out of the throne, saying, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them ..." (Rev. 21:3)
You see? The temple or the tabernacle IS the New Jerusalem. The temple is ALSO God and the Lamb !
"And I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." (Rev. 21:22)
The CITY is a tabernacle of God. The CITY is the temple of God where God lives. And the temple is God the Almighty and the Lamb, the Redeemer. This means nothing other than the city is God UNITED with man.
01 Apr 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou must be the slowest learner I've ever met.
careful GB such information could be used to call you to account for failing to post at divegeesters behest. Oh wait, I see it already is, what next for him, robbing old ladies and beating up homeless people.
01 Apr 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYou see I don't think the words are confusing at all and in fact I see it as a sleight on the nature of god to seek to interpret those clear concise words as you reference does and as you subscribe to.
divegeester, here's a brief explanation of the confusing words in context from Scofield's Reference. Thanks for your patience.
"Notes Second death, Summary: "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms Rev 20:14 and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is "second" relative to the preceding physical death of the wicked in u ...[text shortened]... .htm
(Appointment today; be back this evening with several passages of scripture and comments.)
I wholeheartedly reject a god who would put people in an eternal hell. I despise the concept and will aggressively call out those who support it as it is in my view a heinous slander.
I'm only surprised the JWs don't believe it; I guess there's hope.
01 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Grampy Bobbydivegeester, here's a brief explanation of the confusing words in context from Scofield's Reference. Thanks for your patience.
divegeester, here's a brief explanation of the confusing words in context from Scofield's Reference. Thanks for your patience.
"Notes Second death, Summary: "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms Rev 20:14 and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is "second" relative to the preceding physical death of the wicked in u ...[text shortened]... .htm
(Appointment today; be back this evening with several passages of scripture and comments.)
"Notes Second death, Summary: "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms Rev 20:14 and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is "second" relative to the preceding physical death of the wicked in unbelief and rejection of God; their eternal state is one of eternal "death" (i.e. separation from God) in sins Jn 8:21,24. That the second death is not annihilation is shown by a comparison of Rev 19:20 20:10. After one thousand years in the lake of fire the Beast and False Prophet are still there, undestroyed. The words "forever and forever" "to the ages of the ages" are used in Heb 1:8 for the duration of the throne of God, eternal in the sense of unending." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/20-14.htm
God exhausts every possibility in seeking to save us by reconciling us to Himself. Romans 2: 2-5 describes the impartiality of God: "2. Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4. Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5. But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;" Failure to adjust to the Justice of God leaves eternal condemnation as the only alternative.
God blesses adjustment and curses maladjustment (rejection of Christ as Savior) to His Justice. If God didn't remain consistent in the function of His Justice [Romans 2:11 "For there is no partiality with God."] He would not be God because He would have no integrity, which is the guarantee of our salvation. A loving God doesn't reject unbelievers; the unbeliever rejects the love of God that was demonstrated at Christ's crucifixion on Golgotha Hill as a substitute for all mankind.
At the conclusion of the Millennium all human beings who have rejected Christ will appear before Him presiding in terrible majesty from the Great White Throne for the Last Judgment. Jesus Christ will personally sentence each of them to join Satan and the rest of the fallen angels to suffer in the Lake of Fire separated from God forever.... (Revelation 20:14-15)
01 Apr 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThere are no confusing words in this forum except from you.
divegeester, here's a brief explanation of the confusing words in context from Scofield's Reference. Thanks for your patience.
"Notes Second death, Summary: "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms Rev 20:14 and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is "second" relative to the preceding physical death of the wicked in u ...[text shortened]... en angels to suffer in the Lake of Fire separated from God forever....[/i] (Revelation 20:14-15)
With respect.
01 Apr 14
Originally posted by divegeesterLikewise, I respect you and your continuing interest in spiritual issues. Often I think of how powerful is the Word of God:
There are no confusing words in this forum except from you.
With respect.
"The Word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and the marrow, and is a critic of thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)
"All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God might be mature, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
(2 Timothy 2:15)
In doing so I'm humbled by the realization that He reads our every thought and that we're part of His Perfect Plan. -Bob