Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"In the meantime do you agree that claiming that "death" means the same as "eternal suffering"
Since the digit "8" on its side isn't supported by these forums, I searched for a mathematical equivalent.
Your deeply held question* is still very much on my mind. Please continue to remain patient. Thanks.
*Question: "In the meantime do you agree that claiming that "death" means the same as "eternal suffering"
is nonsensical and therefore an erroneous interpretation?" -divegeester
is nonsensical and therefore an erroneous interpretation?" -divegeester
"What Is the Lake of Fire? Scripture speaks of a final place of judgment known as the "lake of fire."
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone (Revelation 19:20).
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . Then Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:10,14,15).
But the cowardly, unbelieving abominable, murders, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death (Revelation 21:8). The Scripture has the following to say concerning the lake of fire.
Second Death: The lake of fire is also known as the second death. Blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power. (Revelation 20:6).
Observations: The judgment of the lake of fire is final, conscious, and bodily. From these passages we can make the following observations.
1. The second death is eternal death from which there is no hope. The lake of fire is the final destination of unbelievers. Those who had been kept in Hades will eventually be placed in this eternal judgment. The second death is equivalent to saying the last death.
2. Those suffering are conscious (Revelation 20:10). The suffering is eternal, the dead are not in a state of extinction.
3. The wicked are suffering in bodily form. There will be a resurrection of the unbelieving dead in some type of bodily form. Jesus said.
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and will come out - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation (John 5:28,29).
Paul wrote: I have a hope in God - a hope that they themselves also accept - that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. (Acts 24:15).
If the dead were merely annihilated, then there would be no reason for a resurrection. Furthermore if they were in their final place of judgment in Hades, there would not be a need for a resurrection.
4. The lake of fire is referred to as a burning lake. Four times fire and sulfur are mentioned in the Book of Revelation (Revelation 14:10: 19:20; 20:10 and 21:8) when referring to the lake of fire.
Summary: What is commonly known as hell, is what the Bible calls the "lake of fire." It is the final judgment of the wicked. Those in the lake of fire will suffer eternally, consciously, and bodily. It will be an awful place." Don Stewart
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_170.cfm
Note: divegeester, I'll continue to pursue definitive resolution of your question.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Reference Page 6)
divegeester, here's a brief explanation of the confusing words in context from Scofield's Reference. Thanks for your patience.
"Notes Second death, Summary: "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms Rev 20:14 and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is "second" relative to the preceding physical death of the wicked in unbelief and rejection of God; their eternal state is one of eternal "death" (i.e. separation from God) in sins Jn 8:21,24. That the second death is not annihilation is shown by a comparison of Rev 19:20 20:10. After one thousand years in the lake of fire the Beast and False Prophet are still there, undestroyed. The words "forever and forever" "to the ages of the ages" are used in Heb 1:8 for the duration of the throne of God, eternal in the sense of unending." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/20-14.htm
God exhausts every possibility in seeking to save us by reconciling us to Himself. Romans 2: 2-5 describes the impartiality of God: "2. Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4. Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5. But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;" Failure to adjust to the Justice of God leaves eternal condemnation as the only alternative.
God blesses adjustment and curses maladjustment (rejection of Christ as Savior) to His Justice. If God didn't remain consistent in the function of His Justice [Romans 2:11 "For there is no partiality with God."] He would not be God because He would have no integrity, which is the guarantee of our salvation. A loving God doesn't reject unbelievers; the unbeliever rejects the love of God that was demonstrated at Christ's crucifixion on Golgotha Hill as a substitute for all mankind.
At the conclusion of the Millennium all human beings who have rejected Christ will appear before Him presiding in terrible majesty from the Great White Throne for the Last Judgment. Jesus Christ will personally sentence each of them to join Satan and the rest of the fallen angels to suffer in the Lake of Fire separated from God forever.... (Revelation 20:14-15)
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Originally posted by FMFBut the book of Revelation is so sweet. Without it the Bible has no conclusion.
I wonder if any other NT book has caused as many Christians to question and then abandon their faith as the Book of Revelation has.
edit: might be an interesting OP.
Originally posted by sonshipIt became altogether too much for me to swallow, I'm afraid, sonship. And once the credibility of the canon was dealt that blow, my faith in its authenticity ~ in its entirety ~ fell away. These things happen. 🙂
Revelation is so sweet. Without it the Bible has no conclusion.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyHeb 9:27 "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment;"
"In the meantime do you agree that claiming that "death" means the same as "eternal suffering"
is nonsensical and therefore an erroneous interpretation?" -divegeester
"What Is the Lake of Fire? Scripture speaks of a final place of judgment known as the "lake of fire."
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked cfm
Note: divegeester, I'll continue to pursue definitive resolution of your question.[/b]
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThe national debt aside, what do these numbers have to do with reality?
[b]How is eternity expressed mathematically?
Here are the largest numbers I could find as a layman's point of reference:
Googol: A large number. A "1" followed by one hundred zeros.
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Googolple ...[text shortened]... thom the infinite quantitative/qualitative aspect of an eternity with or separated from God?[/i]
Originally posted by whodeyAny time someone says "eternally" you now know that it is a number higher than any number writable.
The national debt aside, what do these numbers have to do with reality?
Any time someone says "infinitly" you now know that it is a number higher than any number writable.
Originally posted by FabianFnasSo is the US national debt eternal or infinite?
Any time someone says "eternally" you now know that it is a number higher than any number writable.
Any time someone says "infinitly" you now know that it is a number higher than any number writable.
They can't seem to pass a budget so I'll go with eternal. 😵
Originally posted by whodey"So is the US national debt eternal or infinite?"
So is the US national debt eternal or infinite?
They can't seem to pass a budget so I'll go with eternal. 😵
Neither. There could always be on dollar more, and it can always take on day more to pay back.
Eternal has to do with time, right?
Originally posted by whodeyOriginally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 3)
The national debt aside, what do these numbers have to do with reality?
Yes, divegeester. Thought the open ended white space without perimeter symbolized non linear eternity.
whodey, wouldn't you agree that "reality" includes eternity before we were born and eternity after our deaths?
Originally posted by FabianFnasOriginally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 7)
Any time someone says "eternally" you now know that it is a number higher than any number writable.
Any time someone says "infinitly" you now know that it is a number higher than any number writable.
Fabian, your explanation is one of the most understandable I've ever read:
"But one thing is clear - you cannot express it with a number. Like googolplex or someething, a one with a lot of zeroes. Because what ever number you use, if you manage to add it by one then it wasn't the infinity number."
Thank you.
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Fabian, is it possible that there isn't "any number writable" or unwritable, i. e., infinity/eternity is humanly unquantifiable?
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI would say that time began with the Big Bang and the creation of the material universe. Before this there was no time. Then as entropy takes its course, matter will dissolve into nothingness again and time will end.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 3)
Yes, divegeester. Thought the open ended white space without perimeter symbolized non linear eternity.
whodey, wouldn't you agree that "reality" includes eternity before we were born and eternity after our deaths?
All that will remain will be from the demension from which time sprang.
Interestingly enough the CBO calculated that an eternity is not enough time to pay off the US national debt which runs at over $17 trillion. Hell, the universe is only 15 billion years old.
Originally posted by whodey
I would say that time began with the Big Bang and the creation of the material universe. Before this there was no time. Then as entropy takes its course, matter will dissolve into nothingness again and time will end.
All that will remain will be from the demension from which time sprang.
Interestingly enough the CBO calculated that an eternity is not ...[text shortened]... national debt which runs at over $17 trillion. Hell, the universe is only 15 billion years old.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 3)
Yes, divegeester. Thought the open ended white space without perimeter symbolized non linear eternity.
whodey, wouldn't you agree that "reality" includes eternity before we were born and eternity after our deaths?
Originally posted by whodey
"I would say that time began with the Big Bang and the creation of the material universe. Before this there was no time. Then as entropy takes its course, matter will dissolve into nothingness again and time will end.
All that will remain will be from the demension from which time sprang."
Topic: eternity; your comments focus on the parenthetical bracket of time.
Am I misreading your comments?