Originally posted by NemesioNice post
I believe it is irrelevant whether He did or He did not. Let's take both sides
of the issue.
Let's say He did. So what? A million other people in Jesus's time were miracle-
workers. If we are going to treat the stories in the Gospels as true reflections of
events, then why discard Josephus who speaks of many other people working
miracles? Or ...[text shortened]... erve to inspire the opened minded, irrespective of
their belief in a Supreme Being.
Nemesio
There is another explaination for some of Jesus's healing miracles, and that was that he could have had some medical knowledge. If he knew of a medieval version of CPR, then he could effectively have brought back people from the dead. Further Jesus may have been unaware of exactly how the process worked & may have just been following a sacred ritual based on the CPR movements, effectively deluding himself of his own supernatural powers.
If a CPR event was written up by the unintiated eye in a supersitious society then my guess is you would have something as a comparison to some of the stories of Jesus's healings as found in the gospels.
There are a couple of medical text from indian that are very old (2000-4000 years old). One of which details the procedure for reconstructing a persons nose that has been cut off (this was a common punishment) from a skin graft taken from the forehead. I don't know if there is a CPR procedure in these texts but when you consider how advanced this nose procedure is compared to our western medicine (plastic surgery is only about 200 years old), It has a strong possibility that something like CPR maybe there.
In fact there is a whole body of evidence that points that Jesus (or at least someone very much like him) spent some time in Indian. Which has mostly been ignored or poo poohed by the Christain community, for obvious reasons. If it were true, it could explain a lot.
Originally posted by NemesioI think you underestimate the miracles. Without them Jesus would never have been as accepted as he is. Jesus changed the world like no other person in history. None of those other guys have achieved the worldwide acceptance and popularity as Jesus.
I believe it is irrelevant whether He did or He did not. Let's take both sides
of the issue.
Let's say He did. So what? A million other people in Jesus's time were miracle-
workers. If we are going to treat the stories in the Gospels as true reflections of
events, then why discard Josephus who speaks of many other people working
miracles? Or ...[text shortened]... erve to inspire the opened minded, irrespective of
their belief in a Supreme Being.
Nemesio
If there were millions of saviors and miracle workers that means that there were million of phones and charlatans. Today is not much different. There are plenty of these kinds of self proclaimed prophets around. None are getting crucified and raising the dead though, and none will ever do anything like what Jesus did.
Originally posted by checkbaiterThis remines me of an arguement that I had with an ex girlfriend about abortion. I was pro-abortion but only in cases of rape or a defective birth, She was anti-abortion except in cases of rape or a defective birth. At the end of the day it amounted to the same thing.
[b]My faith is unwavering in the face of new historical information..
Faith in what?...What I find to be sad is that you seem to have a wealth of knowledge in scripture and church history. The sad part is you don't seem to believe any of it....so you have faith in what? Man's wisdom? History? Astronomy? So you gain knowledge, but what good is it ...[text shortened]... and know scripture but never believe it and trust. Even so, I'll keep you in my prayers.....🙂[/b]
It seems to me that you both have faith in Jesus's message, one born from logic, one born from trust.
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressHowever there are plenty of doctors, nurses & first aiders, in the world that are saving lifes by bringing people back from the dead everyday.
If there were millions of saviors and miracle workers that means that there were million of phones and charlatans. Today is not much different. There are plenty of these kinds of self proclaimed prophets around. None are getting crucified and raising the dead though, and none will ever do anything like what Jesus did.
Originally posted by Jay PeateaYes, but how does this relate?
However there are plenty of doctors, nurses & first aiders, in the world that are saving lifes by bringing people back from the dead everyday.
Do the medical professionals talk about God, saving the world, starting the most successful religion ever, etc?
They do their jobs.
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressYou did state that
Yes, but how does this relate?
Do the medical professionals talk about God, saving the world, starting the most successful religion ever, etc?
They do their jobs.
I think you underestimate the miracles. Without them Jesus would never have been as accepted as he is.
I'm just putting things in prespective & highlighting the fact that 'healing miracles" are common place, and that Jesus potentionally has no more ability to cure the sick, than say your average medical professional would have.
Originally posted by Jay PeateaThat’s not exactly true. Medicine considers it a miracle when patients respond to the medicine.
You did state that
I think you underestimate the miracles. Without them Jesus would never have been as accepted as he is.
I'm just putting things in prespective & highlighting the fact that 'healing miracles" are common place, and that Jesus potentionally has no more ability to cure the sick, than say your average medical professional would have.
Example: When somebody like Lance Armstrong overcomes cancer it is considered a miracle.
None of Armstrong’s doctors told him be rid of cancer and it was so. They prescribed medicine, and the road to recovery was long and arduous.
Show me a doctor who tells somebody in the grave to get up and it happens. Show me a doctor who dies and comes back to life after three days, walks on water, etc.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
I think you underestimate the miracles. Without them Jesus would never have been as accepted as he is.
This is totally wrong.
Jesus was among dozens or scores of people in His own generation who performed
miracles. The miracles were remarkable but not unique. His ability to heal
(if we pretend to agree that He could) did very little to compel a person than the
various other miracle-worker types in those days because there were many competing
healers. There is even mention of this in the Bible in a few places -- about false
prophets doing healings, or non-Christians healing in the name of Christ.
Jesus changed the world like no other person in history. None of those other guys have achieved the worldwide acceptance and popularity as Jesus.
Well, that's not entirely true. Mohammed changed the world. Joseph Smith changed
the world. Mary Baker Eddy changed the world. Aristotle changed the world. Beethoven
changed the world.
Hell, the most influential person on the course of human history was probably Johann
Gutenberg.
But, if we want to compare Jesus with the other healers -- people who did the same
healings by independent accounts -- then it is foolish to say the healings distinguished
Jesus. Since Jesus and these other guys both did healings and other miraculous feats,
you should be looking at the things which Jesus did and these guys didn't do (and,
no, it's not 'raise from the dead'😉. It's what Jesus taught about the human condition
that stands out, not His healings.
Nemesio
Originally posted by checkbaiter
Faith in what?...What I find to be sad is that you seem to have a wealth of knowledge in scripture and church history. The sad part is you don't seem to believe any of it....so you have faith in what?
LOL. Sad? Knowledge and faith have little to do with each other (unless one find
dispositve truth of something in which they previously had faith). Yes, I have a
knowledge of Scripture, but just because I can conclude that St Luke added his own
touches to 'Q' (the sayings of Jesus) doesn't mean that St Luke wasn't speaking with
Divine inspiration.
Faith is not about words or books or beginnings of the earth or whether Jesus brushed
the right or left side of His beard first. Faith is about something bigger and more precious
than anything you can fathom. Jesus's miracles are about the corporeal. Who cares about
the body -- that we KNOW is ephemeral and disappears. Whether the earth is 6000 years
old or not is about the corporeal. A dozen sciences come to independent conclusions through
entirely unrelated methods to demonstrate the falsity of such a claim.
The bible is not full of myths. I have proven that to myself. I have given my life to Jesus Christ and He has answered me again and again. I don't know who you have listened to, what you have read, but I can assure you the bible is not myth. As I said once before, I was blind and now I see. Therefore I have already proven it to myself. You may think I am delusional, but I can claim to know Jesus Christ "experientially".
You keep telling yourself this over and over in spite of evidence to the contrary.
We find ancient manuscript after manuscript which revise our notions of the original
(for example, the woman caught in adultery is not part of St John's Gospel in any
of the early manuscripts). We find historical evidence which diminishes the fantastic
importance of the ministry of Jesus (how unimportant the Pharisees really were, or
how miracles were viewed, or how the Romans influenced the desemination of early
Church texts). We find writings which show competetion and manipulation before and
during the formation of the early Church (writings found at Qumran).
And, all the while, you are willing to pretend that there are no contradictions in the
Bible, when it is demonstrable they are (did Jesus overturn the money tables in the
beginning or end of His ministry? Was He crucified before or after the Passover
Seder?).
Maybe you think Jesus is speaking to you, but if someone was telling me to
believe in things which we can show to be a lie, then I would be inclined to believe it
was not Jesus, but 'Satan.'
That is the problem with those who read and know scripture but never believe it and trust. Even so, I'll keep you in my prayers.....🙂
You are wasting your time.
I trust Scripture dearly and preciously. My trust in their Truth goes beyond their historicity.
I don't need validation to know that the parable of the Good Samariten is God-breathed and,
if I found out tomorrow that Jesus definitively didn't say it, I would still want it to be read
every few years in the C cycle of the Lectionary.
Similarly, when I read St Paul's admonition to women not to wear their hair in fancy ways,
I disregard it as not God-breathed, but a reflection of St Paul's hangups about women and
sexuality which were part of his own cultural baggage.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioOriginally posted by The Chess Express
Originally posted by The Chess Express
I think you underestimate the miracles. Without them Jesus would never have been as accepted as he is. [/b]
This is totally wrong.
Jesus was among dozens or scores of people in His own generation who performed
miracles. The miracles were remarkable but not unique. His ability to heal
(if we pretend ...[text shortened]... t's what Jesus taught about the human condition
that stands out, not His healings.
Nemesio[/b]
I think you underestimate the miracles. Without them Jesus would never have been as accepted as he is.
This is totally wrong.
Jesus was among dozens or scores of people in His own generation who performed miracles. The miracles were remarkable but not unique. His ability to heal (if we pretend to agree that He could) did very little to compel a person than the various other miracle-worker types in those days because there were many competing
healers. There is even mention of this in the Bible in a few places -- about false prophets doing healings, or non-Christians healing in the name of Christ.
I would say that you are totally wrong. Who died on the cross? Who rose from the dead after three days? Jesus did many things that are unique to him.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Jesus changed the world like no other person in history. None of those other guys have achieved the worldwide acceptance and popularity as Jesus.
Well, that's not entirely true. Mohammed changed the world. Joseph Smith changed the world. Mary Baker Eddy changed the world. Aristotle changed the world. Beethoven changed the world. Hell, the most influential person on the course of human history was probably Johann Gutenberg.
Johann who? What did he/she do? Jesus is the only one who has a following of 2 billion people today. The crucifixion is what we base our timeline on. Whether you choose to believe in the historical miracles or not, this is evidence today.
But, if we want to compare Jesus with the other healers -- people who did the same healings by independent accounts -- then it is foolish to say the healings distinguished Jesus. Since Jesus and these other guys both did healings and other miraculous feats,
you should be looking at the things which Jesus did and these guys didn't do (and, no, it's not 'raise from the dead'😉. It's what Jesus taught about the human condition that stands out, not His healings.
You miss the point entirely. What Jesus taught about "the human condition" is that we need to turn our lives over to God. Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world.
Miracles are illogical to many, and since you won’t admit to believing in God I can understand that you don’t pay much attention to them. That’s ok. Not everybody is a Christian, and I don’t believe that only Christians are favored by God. So believe what you will.
In regards to the Bible, if you don’t accept the miracles, Jesus, God, or the historical accuracy of it, it seems rather pointless to read through it. One could probably get as much from reading a good fairy tale with a moral.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
I would say that you are totally wrong. Who died on the cross? Who rose from the dead after three days? Jesus did many things that are unique to him.
Jesus's dying on the cross was HARDLY remarkable.
Do you want me to cite all the people from the beginning of written history that
rose from the dead?
These are not what make Jesus remarkable. (Assuming all of these things are
true, of course): just because He did these things does not make Him special.
Without His message, these deeds wouldn't have even been recorded.
Johann who? What did he/she do?
The fact you don't know who Gutenberg is and the profound impact he had on
human history is just depressing.
Jesus is the only one who has a following of 2 billion people today. The crucifixion is what we base our timeline on. Whether you choose to believe in the historical miracles or not, this is evidence today.
Yes, and those 2 billion people categorically disagree on what Jesus said. Some
groups go to the point of stating that some other groups are going to burn in hell
for being false Christians.
You miss the point entirely. What Jesus taught about "the human condition" is that we need to turn our lives over to God. Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world.
You've only stated half of it: turn our lives over to God by serving the needs
of humanking with compassion.
Miracles are illogical to many, and since you won’t admit to believing in God I can understand that you don’t pay much attention to them. That’s ok. Not everybody is a Christian, and I don’t believe that only Christians are favored by God. So believe what you will.
In regards to the Bible, if you don’t accept the miracles, Jesus, God, or the historical accuracy of it, it seems rather pointless to read through it. One could probably get as much from reading a good fairy tale with a moral.
Are you suggesting a good fairy tale cannot be inspired by God and embrace the Truth
about humanity? Are fairy tales 'pointless?' And, would you say that there is any fairy
tale which compares to the Prodigal Son?
I'll say it again: the Truth is bigger than miracles. The Truth is bigger than historical events.
The Truth is bigger than anything that can happen on this earth.
This is why it is unimportant that the Bible be 100%, 90%, 5%, 0% historically true. The
Bible is only relating events pertaining to this world. This world is ephemeral, passing
away. The Truths in the Bible (and elsewhere) are what matter, and they are eternal.
For example: the Prodigal Son is not a true story. There was no son, there was no father,
there was no famine. Jesus made that story up. Does that make it any less profound?
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioJesus's dying on the cross was HARDLY remarkable.
]Originally posted by The Chess Express
I would say that you are totally wrong. Who died on the cross? Who rose from the dead after three days? Jesus did many things that are unique to him.[/b]
Jesus's dying on the cross was HARDLY remarkable.
Do you want me to cite all the people from the beginning of written history that
rose from the dead?
...[text shortened]... there was no famine. Jesus made that story up. Does that make it any less profound?
Nemesio[/b]
Do you want me to cite all the people from the beginning of written history that
rose from the dead?
These are not what make Jesus remarkable. (Assuming all of these things are
true, of course): just because He did these things does not make Him special.
Without His message, these deeds wouldn't have even been recorded.
As I said you miss the point entirely.
The fact you don't know who Gutenberg is and the profound impact he had on
human history is just depressing.
Happy to oblige. 😀
Yes, and those 2 billion people categorically disagree on what Jesus said. Some
groups go to the point of stating that some other groups are going to burn in hell
for being false Christians.
The same can be said about most religions. Since there are no others that are 2 billion strong, Christianity has its share of differences.
You've only stated half of it: turn our lives over to God by serving the needs
of humanking with compassion.
I agree with this, but I still think that there is more to it.
Are you suggesting a good fairy tale cannot be inspired by God and embrace the Truth
about humanity? Are fairy tales 'pointless?' And, would you say that there is any fairy
tale which compares to the Prodigal Son?
I mentioned fairy tales for the sake of a moral. These moral truths seem to be of the most value to you.
I'll say it again: the Truth is bigger than miracles. The Truth is bigger than historical events. The Truth is bigger than anything that can happen on this earth.
Perhaps you could explain what the truth is, or are you afraid to say the G word?
This is why it is unimportant that the Bible be 100%, 90%, 5%, 0% historically true. The Bible is only relating events pertaining to this world. This world is ephemeral, passing away. The Truths in the Bible (and elsewhere) are what matter, and they are eternal.
It’s hard for me to separate the truths of the Bible from God. For me at least, God and the Bible are pretty inseparable. This may be why we are not communicating.
For example: the Prodigal Son is not a true story. There was no son, there was no father, there was no famine. Jesus made that story up. Does that make it any less profound?
Jesus often times spoke in parables. I don’t assume that all his parables are based on actual events, but there are not many things that happened thousands of years ago that can be proven today. If an event is recorded in several accounts but left out in others, did it happen?
Religion is about believing. You’re trying to discredit Jesus and it’s not going to work. Short of jumping into a time machine and going back to when Jesus walked the earth, you’ll never make a convincing enough argument. For those who believe there is plenty of evidence in this day and age.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
As I said you miss the point entirely.
Here is your point: Jesus was remarkable because he did miracles.
My response: Not true. Lots of people were reported as doing miracles.
Your point: Jesus was remarkable because he rose from the dead.
My response: Not true. Lots of people were reported as rising from the dead.
You're not following the stream here: There is one thing that separates Jesus
from these 'lots of people.' It's not the miracles and it's not the rising from
the dead.
The same can be said about most religions. Since there are no others that are 2 billion strong, Christianity has its share of differences.
RBHILL has said that Roman Catholics are Mary-worshiping idol mongers and
that they falsely label themselves as Christians. This is hardly a 'share of
differences.' One group explicitly states that another group is going to hell.
To claim any sort of spiritual unity between the two is absurd (and, remember,
Roman Catholics comprise about half of the 2 billion you cited).
I think people predict that Islam will over take Christianity in about 15 years
(as a percentage of the population). Will you concede that Mohammed had
a bigger impact than Jesus when this happens (keep in mind that he started
600+ years later!)?
I mentioned fairy tales for the sake of a moral. These moral truths seem to be of the most value to you.
Of course they are! What good is miracles? They benefit the body. Who cares?!
The body is going to die. It's the things that develop the spirit that matter.
Perhaps you could explain what the truth is, or are you afraid to say the G word?
If I could, I would be the Second Coming or the reincarnation of the Buddha or
whatever messiah figure the mind could devise. I don't claim to have answers.
However, I can eliminate amongst lots of false ones.
It’s hard for me to separate the truths of the Bible from God. For me at least, God and the Bible are pretty inseparable. This may be why we are not communicating.
I'm not separating Truths from God. I'm separating historicity from Truth.
Jesus often times spoke in parables. I don’t assume that all his parables are based on actual events, but there are not many things that happened thousands of years ago that can be proven today. If an event is recorded in several accounts but left out in others, did it happen?
Of course you don't assume that the parables are based on actual events. My question was
does the fact that the Prodigal Son was a contrived story detract in any way from its powerful
message?
Religion is about believing. You’re trying to discredit Jesus and it’s not going to work. Short of jumping into a time machine and going back to when Jesus walked the earth, you’ll never make a convincing enough argument. For those who believe there is plenty of evidence in this day and age.
Yes. And you are putting your trust in things of this world: history. But, when you say 'You
will never make a convincing argument' you demonstrate your closed-mindedness. You show
to the world that you fear a rupture in your faith. I have no such fears, because my faith
cannot be shattered by anything in this world, because my faith is in things which are not part
of this world. I would love the Bible, and its Truths, no less if we did get a time machine and
found out that Jesus never existed. Yours would crumble. Your mind is closed to any additional
truths, mine remains opened.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioYou are a liar...'nuf said
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]I would say that you are totally wrong. Who died on the cross? Who rose from the dead after three days? Jesus did many things that are unique to him.
Jesus's dying on the cross was HARDLY remarkable.
Do you want me to cite all the people from the beginning of written history that
rose from the dea ...[text shortened]... there was no famine. Jesus made that story up. Does that make it any less profound?
Nemesio[/b]
Originally posted by NemesioYou are ignorant! Jesus' ability to raise himself up from the dead made it possible for all Christians to follow him upon death. Jesus conquered death on the cross..."oh death, where is thy sting?" get educated before spewing your anti-Bible crap....
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]I think you underestimate the miracles. Without them Jesus would never have been as accepted as he is.
This is totally wrong.
Jesus was among dozens or scores of people in His own generation who performed
miracles. The miracles were remarkable but not unique. His ability to heal
(if we p ...[text shortened]... t's what Jesus taught about the human condition
that stands out, not His healings.
Nemesio[/b]