16 Mar 06
Originally posted by LemonJelloNa ah. Stop shifting the burden of proof.
I can already smell where this is going. Please, theist, cite your reasons for thinking persons have intrinsic value. I will be glad at that point to demonstrate how the atheist necessarily has recourse to a position of dialectic symmetry. And if your reason is tied inextricably to a source of value originating from God, then I completely fail to see h ...[text shortened]... In that case, the atheist has access to the same endorsements and interpretations as the theist.
16 Mar 06
Originally posted by LemonJelloIt doesn't have to be a passionate mind. How could an agent take nihilism seriously? Isn't it a precondition for our lives being coherent; for our acting, that we take some things as final ends? When Kant and Aristotle agree on a point, it's a good idea to take the point seriously.
To a passionate mind confronted with the absurd, I fail to see how nihilism could ever be appealing. That may be redundant given that the mind is 'passionate' to begin with; but I think I agree with your “I’m beginning to think that….”
16 Mar 06
Originally posted by bbarrHow could an agent take nihilism seriously?
It doesn't have to be a passionate mind. How could an agent take nihilism seriously? Isn't it a precondition for our lives being coherent; for our acting, that we take some things as final ends? When Kant and Aristotle agree on a point, it's a good idea to take the point seriously.
Yeah, that would be a quick contradiction.
16 Mar 06
Originally posted by LemonJelloSince this is a personal value system under scrutiny, my theology is sufficient. The abortion debate is different since it demands a communal value system where theological arguments don't sit well with the non-theistic folk such as yourself.
Makes one wonder why you are so passionately against abortion, then.
EDIT: related to 'human life', not necessarily persons.
I see you've no reason to pursue a coherent discussion here, so don't let me keep you up; get with the ad hominems, they're great to avoid questions.
16 Mar 06
Originally posted by LemonJelloI believe the belief in nothing after this life is "nothing of interest"
I am sorry you felt insulted KJ. That was my fault, and I apologize. But my opinion is still that you have demonstrated absolutely nothing of interest in this thread. One of your main assertions can be boiled down simply to the claim that if death represents a permanent cessation of my consciousness, then, post mortem, my conscious self will no longer ...[text shortened]... iped out once I die and become food for the maggots. Vigilance is more appealing than nihilism.
so I agree.
You and I disagree about all paths being equal if nothing is the
end result of them all, I can accept that. Just do the math and
you will see it.
1+3+6=10
3+1+6+10
2+2+2+2+2=10
You can find many combinations of numbers that add up to 10,
the end result will be 10 no matter how you order the numbers.
You can multiply any number by zero and what do you get, zero.
Zero, in my opinion is more than nothing when I think about
computer programming. Zero has a value, nothing doesn't even
rate a null.
I'm not a believer in nothing after this life, I think that those that
hold to that belief have just that at the end of all their hopes and
desires, nothing. It wouldn't matter what they did, how they did it,
in the end it would be the same for them, and over time all life
they cared about would also end up the same way, and the material
things that may last, would like the beach in my earlier post, it will
change somewhat but still be here, maybe cared for, or uncared for
by others.
Kelly
16 Mar 06
Originally posted by LemonJelloWell, I think if I can have Camus sitting on one shoulder and Ryokan, say, on the other, I can stay sane... I’m more and more coming to the conclusion that I have to keep it about that simple, to keep clear.
To a passionate mind confronted with the absurd, I fail to see how nihilism could ever be appealing. That may be redundant given that the mind is 'passionate' to begin with; but I think I agree with your “I’m beginning to think that….”
(I always tend toward the “absurdist,” crazy-cloud Zen masters: Ryokan, Lin-chi, Ikkyu...)
16 Mar 06
Originally posted by KellyJayBut why are you multiplying your definition, but not LJ's?
I believe the belief in nothing after this life is "nothing of interest"
so I agree.
You and I disagree about all paths being equal if nothing is the
end result of them all, I can accept that. Just do the math and
you will see it.
1+3+6=10
3+1+6+10
2+2+2+2+2=10
You can find many combinations of numbers that add up to 10,
the end result will be 10 ...[text shortened]... will
change somewhat but still be here, maybe cared for, or uncared for
by others.
Kelly
If my life is: 1+4+5=10
why is yours: 1+4+5=0?
16 Mar 06
Originally posted by KellyJayIt seems to me that there is a question here of the goal and the journey.
I believe the belief in nothing after this life is "nothing of interest"
so I agree.
You and I disagree about all paths being equal if nothing is the
end result of them all, I can accept that. Just do the math and
you will see it.
1+3+6=10
3+1+6+10
2+2+2+2+2=10
You can find many combinations of numbers that add up to 10,
the end result will be 10 ...[text shortened]... will
change somewhat but still be here, maybe cared for, or uncared for
by others.
Kelly
Or, to mix metaphors, Alan Watts once said, “If the goal was to get to the end of the symphony, the best musicians would be those who played the fastest.”
Now neither your goal nor mine is death (although there have been some martyrdom-seekers in history who took that as their goal, based on their particular belief in the after-life). But for me, when the symphony ends it ends. For that reason, I focus on the symphony (and my part in it) now—actually, I am likely to end before the symphony does.
To return to the first metaphor, the journey then becomes eminently important to me of itself, with no goal beyond it. Your belief system, Kelly, seems to entail a journey toward a goal at the end of the line, and one matters in light of the other. (Again, that does not mean your route is not a scenic, and hopefully a long, one...)