27 Aug 06
Whodey - just so I'm clear, which of these propositions are you disagreeing with?
a) God chose to create people
b) The people he creates can choose either to believe in and follow him (and gain eternal life with him) or reject him (and forfeit eternal life)
c) Both choices are entirely compatible with free will and personal responsibility
d) At the moment God creates, he knows all the choices every person will make (god is omniscient)
e) God could have created different people (god is omnipotent)
f) It is better (more perfect) for more people to chose to believe in and follow god
g) God is perfect
h) A perfect being would prefer a world that is more perfect to one which is less perfect
27 Aug 06
3 edits
Originally posted by whodeyYes.
So in your scenerio, people like yourself would never exist since you do not believe in God. Is this a better you think?
Edit: Under the assumption that your god and all characteristics and motives you attribute to him are true.
Edit2: And I assume that spiritual death in Hell really really bites. If it doesn't, then I guess I'd rather exist. Of course, we're not considering what I, the human, wants. We are considering what I, the omnipotent, omniscient, loving Creator wants.
27 Aug 06
Originally posted by whodeyWho is saying God is limiting His love to a choosen few? It was when
If you look at the Biblical definition of love I have provided in my above post you may understand God's eye view. As the saying goes, "It is better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all" All those who would have accepted him will have existed. Why would he limit his love to only those chosen few, however.
we were yet sinners Jesus came and died for us, it is God reaching
to the lost (us) that any get saved. It isn't that God loves some
more than others, He has made a way for us all to come, and when
He calls we either answer or not by our own choice.
Kelly
27 Aug 06
3 edits
Originally posted by dottewellThat I don't believe has anything to do with a 'better world' since
Is a world in which more people choose god a better world?
after the day of judgment when sin is purged from the universe the
world will be a better place. Sin is just a small bump in the road within
eternity it has its time now, and when it is dealt with, it will be
completely dealt with to the very core of all that causes sin. The
world will be a better place, the lion will lay down with the lamb, and
no weapons of war will ever be built again.
Kelly
27 Aug 06
Originally posted by KellyJayThat bump makes it suboptimal. Can you give a clear logical argument as to why your god couldn't make this "lion-lamb" universe from the get go? And to pre-empt you, does free will not exist in the lion-lamb universe?
That I don't believe has anything to do with a 'better world' since
after the day of judgment when sin is purged from the universe the
world will be a better place. Sin is just a small bump in the road within
eternity it has its time now, and when it is dealt with, it will be
completely dealt with to the very core of all that causes sin. The
world ...[text shortened]... e lion will lay down with the lamb, and
no weapons of war will ever be built again.
Kelly
27 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionHe did make it that way in the beginning.
That bump makes it suboptimal. Can you give a clear logical argument as to why your god couldn't make this "lion-lamb" universe from the get go? And to pre-empt you, does free will not exist in the lion-lamb universe?
Kelly
27 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayIf he made it that way in the first place, then the "lion-lamb" universe which you say is forthcoming has the flaw that sin can arise and tarnish it at any moment.
He did make it that way in the beginning.
Kelly
In the previous post you said that in the "lion-lamb" universe sin has been "purged away" and "dealt with." If this is so and given that sin obtained in our universe, how could our universe have originally been the "lion-lamb" one ?
27 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionGen 1:31
If he made it that way in the first place, then the "lion-lamb" universe which you say is forthcoming has the flaw that sin can arise and tarnish it at any moment.
In the previous post you said that in the "lion-lamb" universe sin has been "purged away" and "dealt with." If this is so and given that sin obtained in our universe, how could our universe have originally been the "lion-lamb" one ?
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Lion-lamb time, that is until some bad choices were made.
Kelly
27 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayI am not disagreeing with your position. What I was attempting to say was that God loves all mankind. When I say that it is better to have love and lost than not to love at all, I am referring to instances where God shows us love but we reject his love and we are then lost to him. I was not attempting to say that God does not love all men despite their positioning towards him.
Who is saying God is limiting His love to a choosen few? It was when
we were yet sinners Jesus came and died for us, it is God reaching
to the lost (us) that any get saved. It isn't that God loves some
more than others, He has made a way for us all to come, and when
He calls we either answer or not by our own choice.
Kelly
27 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayOk then you have to concede that sin has neither been "purged" nor "dealt with" in a "lion-lamb" universe.
Gen 1:31
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Lion-lamb time, that is until some bad choices were made.
Kelly
27 Aug 06
2 edits
Originally posted by dottewellI am uncomfortable with proposition E. The proposition states that God could have created different people. This is an assumption about God regarding what he could have done differently. If his plan is and was perfect, how then could he have deviated from his plan the way it has unfolded?
Whodey - just so I'm clear, which of these propositions are you disagreeing with?
a) God chose to create people
b) The people he creates can choose either to believe in and follow him (and gain eternal life with him) or reject him (and forfeit eternal life)
c) Both choices are entirely compatible with free will and personal responsibility
d) At the m ...[text shortened]... fect
h) A perfect being would prefer a world that is more perfect to one which is less perfect
27 Aug 06
Originally posted by whodeySo you ask us what we would have done differently, ostensibly meaning what we would have done better. Then when we come up with something that you can't show to be worse, you just define it to be worse.
I am uncomfortable with proposition E. The proposition states that God could have created different people. This is an assumption about God regarding what he could have done differently. If his plan is and was perfect, how then could he have deviated from his plan the way it has unfolded?
It's seems that you are either conceding that the alternative universe is a better one, but infeasible for an omnipotent being, or you are claiming that the universe in which x many people serve god and y many suffer eternal punishment is better than a world in which z many people serve god and 0 people suffer eternal punishment.
The first position has yet to be demonstrated (How exactly is it not logically possible for your god to make such a universe). The second option has serious implications for the character of your god and gets us back to our question to Darfius: what is the maximum value of z that is feasible, why isn't your god satisfied with it, and how the heck do you know the answer to these questions?
27 Aug 06
Originally posted by whodeyI agree that E is the proposition I'd target if I were you. But your explanation won't do. It is pure question-begging.
I am uncomfortable with proposition E. The proposition states that God could have created different people. This is an assumption about God regarding what he could have done differently. If his plan is and was perfect, how then could he have deviated from his plan the way it has unfolded?
27 Aug 06
Originally posted by dottewellI think E should say "God could have chosen not to create some of the people that have existed."
I agree that E is the proposition I'd target if I were you. But your explanation won't do. It is pure question-begging.
That's all that is required for the alternative world.