Originally posted by telerionWhen I created this thread, it was not to imply that we could have done better. I was merely interested in what others had to say on the matter. I think we can both agree that it is much easier to critique than to be critiqued. Therefore, I felt it only fair to place ourselves in the role of God in order to encounter some of the same critiques he encounters from us. However, despite attemping to level the playing field in regards to being critiqued, one can never truly understand and appreciate the level of complexity and thought that went into creation unless one actually attempt it. Although we can play around with ideas about what could have been done differently, making those ideas reality may involve implications for other aspect of creation that prove to be less than desirable. After all, creation is all interconnected in some way and to not consider this fact is a mistake.
So you ask us what we would have done differently, ostensibly meaning what we would have done better. Then when we come up with something that you can't show to be worse, you just define it to be worse.
It's seems that you are either conceding that the alternative universe is a better one, but infeasible for an omnipotent being, or you are claiming th ...[text shortened]... isn't your god satisfied with it, and how the heck do you know the answer to these questions?
Many of the posters thus far I think have not really attempted to place themselves in God's role, rather, they have expressed how they want God to treat them or how they wished God to be in relation to them. For example, one poster said that he would not be all knowing and all powerful. How then could you have the power and wisdom to create what you actually intended to create? How can you hold creation together? What you are really asking for is chaos. Others stated they would not interact with their creation in any way or just let them destroy themselves without any intervention of any kind to help them. For me, this is less than ideal in comparison to a God of love who would come to earth personally to die for my sins.
In regards to your alternative universe, I find it infeasible because it is not perfect. It is not perfect because I think it violates the tenants of love which is free will. This is of coarse is with the assumption that the law of love is in and of itself perfect and irreplaceable. In order to have a loving relaionship with God we must be free to reject him, otherwise love is nothing more than a mechanical act. You say that you can create a universe in which one has free will to reject God, but never does. For me this is equivalent to mechanically fixing our free will to coincide with God's will. If I am rejected by someone I love, then I respect their wishes and set them free. If I do not do so, then I would not be walking in love with them. If I had the power to alter their decision in some way or make sure they planned to love me back beforehand so that I could never be rejected, it would be comparable, or at least in my mind, to forcing them to love me on the spot. I could never snuff out the existence of someone I loved, even if I was equiped with the foreknowledge of them rejecting my love in the end.
Originally posted by KellyJayBut you said earlier that a "lion-lamb" universe was such a universe, not one that would become such a universe. I don't know why you are claiming that the universe before the fall (one in which things almost immediately went haywire) is identical to the one after judgement (in which I presume things will never be able to go haywire).
Not yet, but will be.
Kelly
Although we can play around with ideas about what could have been done differently, making those ideas reality may involve implications for other aspect of creation that prove to be less than desirable. After all, creation is all interconnected in some way and to not consider this fact is a mistake.
It may, but then you're simply waving your hands here. Essentially, you're saying that it may but you're not sure how. Solving problems in which things interrelate really is not that hard (especially for an omnipotent being). I do similar problems (certainly simpler ones than a whole universe) every single day in my field of work. Basically you like for what are called "fixed points." Anyway, needless to say solving such problems is not beyond the ability of an omniscient, omnipotent creator.
[/b]In regards to your alternative universe, I find it infeasible because it is not perfect. It is not perfect because I think it violates the tenants of love which is free will. This is of coarse is with the assumption that the law of love is in and of itself perfect and irreplaceable . . . even if I was equiped with the foreknowledge of them rejecting my love in the end.[/b]
In the alternative world each person chooses freely to serve him. They have a real choice and sin is an option. God does not force them. He knows ahead of time what they will choose of course, but that is no different than our present world. Therefore their will cannot be violated. If it were then by the same argument your free will would be violated right now. Assuming that you do not except that omniscience trumps free will, the alternative world still stands intact. Now given that every person in that world has chosen freely to serve your god, name one person whose free will is violated.
I could never snuff out the existence of someone I loved, even if I was equiped with the foreknowledge of them rejecting my love in the end.
There's nobody that rejects him so he's not "snuffing" anyone from existence.
I got to thinking. Let me make it simpler through three short questions. Let's presume that you continue to serve your god all the days of your life and also that I continue not believing in your god all the days of my life.
1) When your god created you, whodey, he knew you would choose to serve him. Does this mean that you did not choose freely?
2) When your god created me, he knew that I would choose not to serve him. Does this mean that I did not choose freely?
3) Finally, does my (your) free will depend upon your (my) choice to serve (not serve) your god?
Originally posted by telerionWithout commenting on your conjecture, a little ode to irony, if I am allowed. You have stated from time to time that you had previously been a Bible-believing evangelizer, and that you now consider yourself an ardent voice of opposition against your previously-held positions. Primary of those positions was the initial entrance into salvation, namely, your acceptance of the work done on the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ on your behalf.
I got to thinking. Let me make it simpler through three short questions. Let's presume that you continue to serve your god all the days of your life and also that I continue not believing in your god all the days of my life.
1) When your god created you, whodey, he knew you would choose to serve him. Does this mean that you did not choose freely?
...[text shortened]... Finally, does my (your) free will depend upon your (my) choice to serve (not serve) your god?
What I find ironic is that--- despite your objections otherwise--- you will be in the eternal state under the kingdom of Christ. Maybe you don't find that amusing, but I do.
Okay, back to the inquisition.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWhat can I say? It's good to feel loved. 😉
Without commenting on your conjecture, a little ode to irony, if I am allowed. You have stated from time to time that you had previously been a Bible-believing evangelizer, and that you now consider yourself an ardent voice of opposition against your previously-held positions. Primary of those positions was the initial entrance into salvation, namely, yo ...[text shortened]... om of Christ. Maybe you don't find that amusing, but I do.
Okay, back to the inquisition.
Originally posted by telerionAfter the great day of the Lord when all things are judged for what they
But you said earlier that a "lion-lamb" universe was such a universe, not one that would become such a universe. I don't know why you are claiming that the universe before the fall (one in which things almost immediately went haywire) is identical to the one after judgement (in which I presume things will never be able to go haywire).
really are, it will not go back to that ever again. The universe pre sin
and post sin will not be the same, the former will have to be cleaned
the ladder will not have to be.
Kelly
Originally posted by telerionI believe that you have free will whether you choose to or not to serve God. However, I say that a creation that supposidly has free will to serve God and never once chooses to not serve God, has a free will that is suspect of actually being free.
I got to thinking. Let me make it simpler through three short questions. Let's presume that you continue to serve your god all the days of your life and also that I continue not believing in your god all the days of my life.
1) When your god created you, whodey, he knew you would choose to serve him. Does this mean that you did not choose freely?
...[text shortened]... Finally, does my (your) free will depend upon your (my) choice to serve (not serve) your god?
Originally posted by KellyJayThen they aren't the same, which is what you first claimed. Okay, that's fine. I just wanted to clear that up. You know clean the ladder (even if it doesn't have to be. 😉
After the great day of the Lord when all things are judged for what they
really are, it will not go back to that ever again. The universe pre sin
and post sin will not be the same, the former will have to be cleaned
the ladder will not have to be.
Kelly
Originally posted by whodeySo we are back to page 8 (and also page 19)
I believe that you have free will whether you choose to or not to serve God. However, I say that a creation that supposidly has free will to serve God and never once chooses to not serve God, has a free will that is suspect of actually being free.
telerion
Must there be sin for there to be free will then?
whodey
No. In fact, Christ had free will and did not sin.
It seems that you are answering my third question above with "Yes." Do you believe that in order for you to freely choose to serve your god, at least somebody else has to choose not to? Isn't your decision yours and yours alone? If not, then how else could you be held responsible?
Originally posted by telerionI said at first there was a perfect universe, sin entered, it now needs
Then they aren't the same, which is what you first claimed. Okay, that's fine. I just wanted to clear that up. You know clean the ladder (even if it doesn't have to be. 😉
cleaned. Once evil has run its full course it will be dealt with forever,
and that will be that. I don't believe I have changed my stance at
any time.
Kelly