29 Aug 06
Originally posted by whodeyWait a second. Now you are saying that sin doesn't exist? Hold the phone!!! Did anybody tell that to Jesus before he sacrificed himself on a cross?
Incorrect. Sin is merely opposition to the will of God. Sin in and of itself, therefore, does not exist.
I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, whodey.
29 Aug 06
Originally posted by KellyJayAssuming that your god is real and the story behind it is true, then yes, here we are. I find this world to be incompatible with the type of god you espouse though given that I can see no compelling reason for why he did not create the alternative universe or some other one which is even better.
Yes I can understand, but it doesn't alter anything as far as the way
things are though now does it? God allowed creation to be subjected
to this and we are going through a lot of pain and grief, much is
brought about by our own hands.
Kelly
So we reach a stalemate I suppose. But then did we really expect any other outcome?
29 Aug 06
Originally posted by whodeyMy response to this is the same that I gave to KJ a page or so ago. You are appealing to "unknown purposes," essentially claiming "I don't know," and that is fine. In fact I think it is a lot more reasonable then the Darfius method which is to make up some crazy excuse after the fact that you can't possible know is true. It's not compelling to a non-believer because any supernatural being can be defended this way, but it seems fair given the situation and I respect it.
This is the lesson. Creation is finite. God is infinite. Therefore, the finite must trust in the infinite via faith. Faith is the only means in which the finite can embrace the infinite. We must trust God in matters that we do not understand or comprehend. We will never understand all matters completly. This will never change.
29 Aug 06
Originally posted by whodeyChristian analogies which attempt to help us understand God by comparing him to humans (interesting that God's character was the US in your analogy) are always way off because they fail to address the difference between God's supposed infinite and humans' limited power. Anyone who's taken a lot of math knows how infinities really screw otherwise legitimate equations up. It's not nitpicking to point out that God is supposedly not limited and therefore will respond to situations much differently that humans.
Please do not pick my analogy to death. Take my analogy in the spirit for which it was given. I realize that it is not a perfect analogy. The analogy assumes the following: Communism fell because its mode of governing was and is faulty and once it was allowed to fail, no one could then argue it should remain a viable alternative. If it had not been allow ...[text shortened]... ulation would have persisted as to how it could have worked. This is the premise of my analogy.
30 Aug 06
2 edits
Originally posted by telerionI figured you would blow a gasket when you read that. LOL. Sin does not exist, much in the same way that darkness does not exist. Darkness is merely a way of describing a lack of light. Light we can study but not darkness. Conversely, sin is merely the lack of love in ones heart. It does not exist in and of itself. Think about it. If sin existed then it would mean that God created it since he created everything, no? If he created sin, it would make him the source of sin. This simply is not the case.
Wait a second. Now you are saying that sin doesn't exist? Hold the phone!!! Did anybody tell that to Jesus before he sacrificed himself on a cross?
I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, whodey.
30 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionThanks. I used to be a lot more sure of myself and thought I had all the answers when I first became a Christian. I may even come across as having all the answers, but I do not mean to if I do. I have matured as a Christian, however, via numerous humbling experiences that have exopsed me to be nothing but full of myself when placing my confidence in my own knowledge and abilities. As I like to say, the goal is more of Christ and less of me. It is still fun contemplating the reasons God does what he does, however. His infinite ways in thier totality may be unknowable, but he can reveal himself as he sees fit to those that seek him.
My response to this is the same that I gave to KJ a page or so ago. You are appealing to "unknown purposes," essentially claiming "I don't know," and that is fine. In fact I think it is a lot more reasonable then the Darfius method which is to make up some crazy excuse after the fact that you can't possible know is true. It's not compelling to a non-beli ...[text shortened]... l being can be defended this way, but it seems fair given the situation and I respect it.
30 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionInteresting you are taking the 'sacrifice of Christ' as a proven fact. There is a lot of evidence he survived the execution attempt and just showed up a few days later saying 'here I am, ain't it a miracle' then, realizing the Romans would be unlikely to allow him to live if he was found out, took the Silk Road out of town never to be seen in Jerualem again. There are a lot of monastaries founded along the Silk road dating back to the time of Jesus.
Wait a second. Now you are saying that sin doesn't exist? Hold the phone!!! Did anybody tell that to Jesus before he sacrificed himself on a cross?
I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, whodey.
That story is a lot more believable than the dogma in the bible.
30 Aug 06
Originally posted by sonhouseMaybe he was the one they took down instead of Brian.
Interesting you are taking the 'sacrifice of Christ' as a proven fact. There is a lot of evidence he survived the execution attempt and just showed up a few days later saying 'here I am, ain't it a miracle' then, realizing the Romans would be unlikely to allow him to live if he was found out, took the Silk Road out of town never to be seen in Jerualem again ...[text shortened]... ack to the time of Jesus.
That story is a lot more believable than the dogma in the bible.
30 Aug 06
Originally posted by sonhouseEr. I'd be interested in reviewing the 'lot of evidence' for this.
Interesting you are taking the 'sacrifice of Christ' as a proven fact. There is a lot of evidence he survived the execution attempt and just showed up a few days later saying 'here I am, ain't it a miracle' then, realizing the Romans would be unlikely to allow him to live if he was found out, took the Silk Road out of town never to be seen in Jerualem again ...[text shortened]... ack to the time of Jesus.
That story is a lot more believable than the dogma in the bible.
I have a sneaky suspiscion that the amount of evidence is
probably comparable to the 'lots of evidence' for the fact that
He died and rose. That is, a few dated anecdotal accounts.
What is your source for the 'lot of monastaries' dating to the
time of Jesus? I've never heard of any such thing -- on the
Silk Road or anywhere. Consider:
Christian monasticism had its origin in the Egyptian deserts in the
3d–4th cent. with the anchorites, who sought perfection in the most
extreme asceticism. Most famous of these hermits was St. Anthony,
who is called the father of monasticism. From among loose associations
of these hermits, the monk St. Pachomius organized (c.320) the first
cenobitic community. Somewhat similar was the laura—cells arranged
into a monastic village, sometimes of very great size.
http://www.answers.com/topic/monasticism
It sounds to me that you are either blowing hot air or grossly misinformed,
but, I'm opened to reviewing your sources, if you can provide them.
Nemesio
30 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionThere's always the possibility that one side or the other will be swayed, at least partway, by the other side's arguments. Or, even more likely, that some third party might find one side or the other convincing.
Assuming that your god is real and the story behind it is true, then yes, here we are. I find this world to be incompatible with the type of god you espouse though given that I can see no compelling reason for why he did not create the alternative universe or some other one which is even better.
So we reach a stalemate I suppose. But then did we really expect any other outcome?
31 Aug 06
Originally posted by sonhouseDude, you're coming in about 24 pages too late. I've been taking all sorts of things as given in this thread that I do not necessarily believe. It's a thought experiment not a statement of faith.
Interesting you are taking the 'sacrifice of Christ' as a proven fact. There is a lot of evidence he survived the execution attempt and just showed up a few days later saying 'here I am, ain't it a miracle' then, realizing the Romans would be unlikely to allow him to live if he was found out, took the Silk Road out of town never to be seen in Jerualem again ...[text shortened]... ack to the time of Jesus.
That story is a lot more believable than the dogma in the bible.
31 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by FischerMHMy limited reason must keep me from comprehending the natural evils that he rains down from on high.
I would do exactly as God did. Since he is perfect, all of his decisions are perfect, and thus his creation is perfect. Our limited reason just cannot comprehend it.
31 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by FischerMH...and thus his creation is perfect...
I would do exactly as God did. Since he is perfect, all of his decisions are perfect, and thus his creation is perfect. Our limited reason just cannot comprehend it.
You might want to take a gander at the “General Argument From Evil” thread:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=21886
It’s long, but worth the read. Nevertheless, on page 12, bbarr shows that for this to be the perfect creation (whether we understand it or not), then if there were one less instance of suffering in the world—e.g., one less child dying a painful death in an earthquake—then the world would be less perfect than it is.