31 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionThe only thing I'd point out is that the current state of the universe
Assuming that your god is real and the story behind it is true, then yes, here we are. I find this world to be incompatible with the type of god you espouse though given that I can see no compelling reason for why he did not create the alternative universe or some other one which is even better.
So we reach a stalemate I suppose. But then did we really expect any other outcome?
isn't the end of the story, it is just a nasty bump in the road that
will be over come. The eternal universe will be the lion-lamb one
we have talked about.
Kelly
31 Aug 06
Originally posted by vistesdOne of the problems with man is that without the theological virtue of hope, life is limited to the natural. Thus, evil is defined as anything that harms man or nature in this life, without consideration of the next life.
[b]...and thus his creation is perfect...
You might want to take a gander at the “General Argument From Evil” thread:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=21886
It’s long, but worth the read. Nevertheless, on page 12, bbarr shows that for this to be the perfect creation (whether we understand it or not), then if there were on ...[text shortened]... ss child dying a painful death in an earthquake—then the world would be less perfect than it is.[/b]
For example, take a friend of mine. He is a police officer. Two years ago, his 4 year old son found his gun and shot and killed himself. It was truly a tragedy from the naturalistic perspective. However, from the perspective of God, it was not a tragedy. The boy is now eternally happy with God in heaven. His parents, after greiving, have 100% knowledge that their son is in heaven. As parents, that is our primary duty.
God may have foresaw that if the boy had lived past the age of reason, he would have fallen away from the Faith and would have died in the state of mortal sin, and lost his soul. Therefore, from God's perspective allowing the boy to die before reaching the age of reason was not evil and in fact merciful.
Again, until man can create anything, he should not presume to judge God.
31 Aug 06
Originally posted by FischerMH
For example, take a friend of mine. He is a police officer. Two years ago, his 4 year old son found his gun and shot and killed himself. It was truly a tragedy from the naturalistic perspective. However, from the perspective of God, it was not a tragedy. The boy is now eternally happy with God in heaven. His parents, after greiving, have 100% knowledge that their son is in heaven. As parents, that is our primary duty.
God may have foresaw that if the boy had lived past the age of reason, he would have fallen away from the Faith and would have died in the state of mortal sin, and lost his soul. Therefore, from God's perspective allowing the boy to die before reaching the age of reason was not evil and in fact merciful.
Wow. This sort of rationalization is so pitiful. It's a desperate attempt to reconcile a tragic event
with a 'merciful' God.
What it fails to do is explain all of the times when God didn't 'intervene.' Certainly there are a
lot of people in the world who fall away from 'the Faith; (hell, there's a lot of them in this forum!).
And, odds are, most of them aren't going to encounter a conversion in their lifetimes. So, why
didn't God 'save' them by killing them when they were babies?
FischerMH, do you really think that if just one fewer of the six million (or so) people who died in
the Holocaust, this would be against God's 'Divine Plan' and would have been 'less perfect?' Do
you really think that it was for the greater good of the universe that Hitler's dad didn't accidently
shoot his son, Adolf?
Nemesio
31 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by FischerMHThank you, Pangloss, for skipping right to the point. The xian is forced to beg the question.
I would do exactly as God did. Since he is perfect, all of his decisions are perfect, and thus his creation is perfect. Our limited reason just cannot comprehend it.
31 Aug 06
Originally posted by vistesdSuch a simple and obvious result of optimization. It's a travesty that he was forced to suffer through 12 pages before some people could get it.
[b]...and thus his creation is perfect...
You might want to take a gander at the “General Argument From Evil” thread:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=21886
It’s long, but worth the read. Nevertheless, on page 12, bbarr shows that for this to be the perfect creation (whether we understand it or not), then if there were on ...[text shortened]... ss child dying a painful death in an earthquake—then the world would be less perfect than it is.[/b]
31 Aug 06
Originally posted by KellyJayThe "current state" as I'm referring to it includes the time dimension. You can think of him choosing deterministic time paths then if that helps.
The only thing I'd point out is that the current state of the universe
isn't the end of the story, it is just a nasty bump in the road that
will be over come. The eternal universe will be the lion-lamb one
we have talked about.
Kelly
31 Aug 06
Originally posted by FischerMHOh, Pangloss. You should have left it at question begging.
One of the problems with man is that without the theological virtue of hope, life is limited to the natural. Thus, evil is defined as anything that harms man or nature in this life, without consideration of the next life.
For example, take a friend of mine. He is a police officer. Two years ago, his 4 year old son found his gun and shot and killed hi ...[text shortened]... in fact merciful.
Again, until man can create anything, he should not presume to judge God.
In your example, your god maintains the perfect character of his designs by ensuring that a young child kills himself before he can be spiritually accountable. In so doing your god spares him eternal torture.
Some questions:
1) One alternative universe proposed so far has your god only creating those he knows will choose to serve him. You story brings up another good alternative. If there is an 'age of reason,' why wouldn't your god kill all the young children that he knows will reject him in the future?
2) Before any of the other xians in this thread are tempted to jump on your bandwagon, doesn't the action of your god in your story trump the boys free will?
31 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionTelerion,
Exactly.
Since you can pass judgment upon God and since I believe that Christ is God incarnate I'm interested to hear how you compare your morality to that of Jesus.
If we had a scale of morality from 0 to 10, with 0 being the lowest level and 10 being the highest, where would put your self in relationship to Jesus Christ as we see Him discribed in the Bible?
What number might you assign to the morality of Jesus and what number might you assign to yourself?
31 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillOpen a new thread because that question is completely off topic. If you want to post in this thread, then take the time to follow the discussion.
Telerion,
Since you can pass judgment upon God and since I believe that Christ is God incarnate I'm interested to hear how you compare your morality to that of Jesus.
If we had a scale of morality from 0 to 10, with 0 being the lowest level and 10 being the highest, where would put your self in relationship to Jesus Christ as we see Him discr ...[text shortened]... number might you assign to the morality of Jesus and what number might you assign to yourself?
31 Aug 06
Originally posted by FischerMHSo your Officer Friend accomplished his "primary duty" to his 4 year old son by leaving his gun out? I hope you don't have any kids or electrical outlets.
One of the problems with man is that without the theological virtue of hope, life is limited to the natural. Thus, evil is defined as anything that harms man or nature in this life, without consideration of the next life.
For example, take a friend of mine. He is a police officer. Two years ago, his 4 year old son found his gun and shot and killed hi ...[text shortened]... in fact merciful.
Again, until man can create anything, he should not presume to judge God.
31 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionThe name of this thread "If You Were God" is the right place for such a question. No whole new thread is really needed.
Open a new thread because that question is completely off topic. If you want to post in this thread, then take the time to follow the discussion.
If you were God where would you place yourself on a scale of morality as compared to the God of the Bible? Say the scale is from 0 to 10.
There I have rephrased the question so it fits well into the Thread Topic. Want to answer now?
31 Aug 06
Originally posted by jaywillTel is right. This is off topic.
The name of this thread "If You Were God" is the right place for such a question. No whole new thread is really needed.
If you were God where would you place yourself on a scale of morality as compared to the God of the Bible? Say the scale is from 0 to 10.
There I have rephrased the question so it fits well into the Thread Topic. Want to answer now?